Greetings fellow rules pedants.
This thread is in the forum for rules discussion but ultimately I don't think it's a topic that is game breaking or hotly debated, so the whole thing is light hearted.
So the creation spell is an interesting one, while being overall fairly balanced. There are maybe some niche cases of being able to make common type poisonous vegetable matter with it or not, but that's it's main use aside from the occasional clutch item use, much like prescient planner.
However, I have questions...
My druid halcyon speaker sprite in strength of thousands is named Juniper and is about to get the halcyon feat persistent creation
Scenario 1a: The pineapple conundrum. Juniper loves pineapples. They're tasty, juicy, make great housing, what's not to love! Juniper creates a nice juicy pineapple with persistent creation, then cuts it up and serves it to his party members. Then, Juniper creates some napkins, to wipe off that pineapple juice. What happens?
Does the pineapple disappear from inside the party's belly? Does the juice disappear from their lips ? Are they fed or not ?
Scenario 1b: Same as 1a, but then the group goes out and walks a couple kilometers , fights, kills, and doesn't eat. Then a day later on breakfast, Juniper summons a new pineapple! Does the old, partially digested, nutrient extracted pineapple then disappear? Would eating the new pineapple cancel the fatigued penalty from being underfed? Since its basically... just putting what was there back?
Scenario 2: A leaf affectionado, on an evening, Juniper summons 5 cubic feet of flayleaf, and loads up his pipe with it, getting a niiiiice buzz going. During the night, he hears howling and hooting and immediately creates a small wooden palissade next to him to shield himself while looking around.
Does the effect from the flayleaf consumption disappear? Is this is the safest way to smoke tobacco? Or is the effect considered a by product of the vegetable matter, much like a stab wound from a pike?
Small questions, just kind of... wondering about this.
Let me know your thoughts!
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I would go with the "never fulfills a cost or the like" as also including costs of keeping people fed.
So while you could create and eat a pineapple, it would have no actual nutritional value. Whether the juice disappears from their lips is somewhat moot, but it probably does disappear.
Flayleaf is similar, but I don't think the argument is quite as solid. Creation creates an object - not a drug. So while it may look and smell similar to flayleaf, it isn't going to create any effect when smoked.
But then if you assume that flayleaf is similar to modern day hemp or majijuana, what is the difference between a drug and the bud of a plant ? If a drug is purely, unrefined, unprocessed vegetable matter, is it really a drug ?
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But then if you assume that flayleaf is similar to modern day hemp or majijuana, what is the difference between a drug and the bud of a plant ? If a drug is purely, unrefined, unprocessed vegetable matter, is it really a drug ?
No matter how it's presented in the background material, flayleaf is an alchemical consumable. This means that you need the Alchemical Crafting to 'craft' flayleaf... There is no mechanics for the unprocessed leaf.
The difference being that a naturally grown plant would have an effect when turned into a drug. A simulation of that plant created through magic wouldn't.
Just like how you can create a wooden (or metal when heightened) disk shaped object with ridges on its edge, but you can't create a gear.
On another angle, if you include the cost of being fed and the cost of items in "fulfills a cost" then what can this spell do?
Ultimately everything in pf2e can and will be sold for a cost at one point or another. I believe that it involving anything involving a cost is a reading that is TBTBT because then in most cases this spell only summons unusable items. Summoning small items with no use is the province of prestigiditation not a level 4 spell like creation.
I believe the precise wording of "fulfilling a cost" to be a specific reference to things such as crafting rules where "You must supply raw materials worth at least half the item's Price. " Or in cases of rituals where, for mystic carriage "toy carriage, horse statues, rare incense, and feathers worth 50)" where without this provision a player could make an argument for his creation spell fulfilling the cost, or again with spells that have focus with cost.
That is definitely the more obvious case for abuse of the spell that gets prevented by the restriction against fulfilling a cost.
As for what you can do with the spell - creating tools and items. Much like Prescient Planner, Improvise Tool, or Scrounger Dedication. A level 4 spell is quite a bit more costly than those other options as far as character level where it becomes available, but a spell slot or two, wand, or handful of scrolls is probably less costly than a feat choice. It is certainly a less permanent build option.
But tools and items have a cost don't they ? What's the difference between that and a pineapple ?
Tools and items have a cost. They don't fulfill a cost. They serve a purpose.
It is actually more of a stretch for me to say that eating food is a cost of continued good health (and therefore doesn't qualify) than it is to say that the Creation spell can create a shortspear or a ladder.
Let me know your thoughts!
Probably no nutritional value.
I think they have been overly cautious with this, and cut out much of the potential story value of this. Being able to create items out of magic is a frequent device in literature.
I'd have allowed you to make more complex things with a appropriate craft roll or other skill check at the GMs discretion. I don't see why it can't have been permanent but have them degrade in quality after an hour.
Potential for permanent retaining of quality at higher level with a cost. The limitation about common materials does need to stay. Drop an uncommon tag on it if you want explicit GM approval.
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Now, if you took the 12th level feat Charged Creation and had an enemy over for pineapple pizza, could you then cause a lightning bolt to erupt from their stomach? I hope I have captured OP's intended tone with this contribution.
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On a more serious note I used to wonder this all the time about Create Water. Sure, technically the spell says it disappears only "if not consumed" but that wouldn't stop my overactive imagination speculating about a caster forced to survive on conjured water long-term needing to ensure that they keep up their intake so that they never run into the danger of most of their body spontaneously desiccating when the water vanishes.
(of course, considering that most people tend to drink more than once in a 24 hour period renders this concern a touch moot, but still).
Back on topic, it's interesting that this spell doesn't offer any guidance for if the conjured object is damaged/destroyed. We must assume it acts like a normal object aside from the ways in which it is "obviously temporarily conjured" (any suggestions? glowing runes perhaps?) and so even if broken in to many obviously conjured pieces, still functions until those tiny pieces dissolve back into eldritch energy.
I'm not convinced by the "supplying a cost" argument for eating, but I do agree that it would be reasonable, nay logical, to suggest that magically conjured food does not properly grant nourishment. If the pineapple is dismissed, the mass of it would indeed vanish from the stomach, and juice from the lips, however in the latter example the party would find that they were still hungry even after attempting to digest the pineapple, as it would be no more nourishing than attempting to eat a similar quantity of dirt. Nothing is lost except the false sensation of fullness without nourishment.
... At least, that's one way to run it that would make sense. Alternatively, go for full hilarity of re-eating the same meal without worrying about unhealthy sugars by dismissing your dessert after finishing.
Oh yeah, and as for flayleaf, once the neurotransmitters cleared from the subject's endoflayvinoid system (cough), the sensation of the high should disappear very shortly, so the moment the flayleaf is dismissed the subjects should sober up immediately... again assuming that the magically simulated flayleaf can be processed by the body.
Now, if you took the 12th level feat Charged Creation and had an enemy over for pineapple pizza, could you then cause a lightning bolt to erupt from their stomach? I hope I have captured OP's intended tone with this contribution.
You have !!
And charged creation was my next logical follow up :P
My GM said that she understands the argument for no nourishment as it would essentially make the food a ''Consumable'' and thus wouldn't work. I think it sounds elegant, but then I'm dating her so I'm biased.
If the food is just as tasty but doesn't provide nourishment that is indeed a plus ! You can glut yourself on desserts and tasty food without gaining any weight ! That's an amazing find !
I also like the idea of the flayleaf giving you a high and then disapearing if you make it go away, but I do admit that it is a slippery slope because then things like black lotus extract would also be somewhat legit and then disappear? I'll ask if tobacco is a go, I like the idea of ''healthy'' conjured tobacco.
Now for charged creation:
Juniper summons a 1 inch thick, 1 inch tall, 720 feet long woven rope (or vine) with his creation effect.
He then uses an unseen servant to drag the rope all the way through the magaambyan campus into a rival dormitory about 500 feet away.
Perching on a branch and looking inside the window of the dorm, Juniper casts stinking cloud and watches in glee as the students exit the dorm screaming.
Is this valid ?
*Wizard casts Heroes' Feast*
*fails check*
*Casts Illusory Creature, Illusory Object (to fill the rest of the plates), and Creation*
OK, eat up.
*Wizard casts Heroes' Feast*
*fails check*
*Casts Illusory Creature, Illusory Object (to fill the rest of the plates), and Creation*
OK, eat up.
But create food creates UNTASTY FOOD ! We can't have that !!! Yuk!
Also takes an hour to cast, and I'm hungry like, NOW !
casts stinking cloud and watches in glee as the students exit the dorm screaming.
Is this valid ?No. Charged creation allows line and cone spells, but Stinking cloud is a burst :-p
Also I remember there was some question about a Light on a rope and people aren't inclined to allow full effect along all the length. Same would happen here, I suppose. The most distant point of spell origin would be within 30 ft as in the feat.
Awwww, fine then, color spray in the shower ?
Yah, the light on a rope thread is the one I thought would be the jurisprudence in that one too. I do admit that its pretty cheesy, I just fail to see a rule that prohibits it, so if my GM would allow it I'd probly use it.
She probly shouldn't allow it though.