At 3rd level, Variant Multiclass Cavalier grants your character the ability to issue a challenge as a cavalier of his character level –2 once per day. He adds the appropriate order adjustment to his challenge based on the order he selected.
Does this count as the Challenge class feature for the purposes of the Chain Challenge feat?
That is to say, does Chain Challenge allow you to extend your 1/day instance of this ability to another enemy as long as they’re within 30 feet of the enemy you just killed or knocked unconscious?
EDIT THE FIRST:
I find it very interesting that the only other prerequisite this feat has is “character level 7th.” I read that as specifically allowing a character who is in some way multiclassing into cavalier to get more than one challenge per day.
EDIT THE SECOND:
I just clued into the fact that this feat was published under the Hobgoblin section of the Monster Codex… but does not include Hobgoblin as a prerequisite.
EDIT THE THIRD:
On the other hand, the same publication does qualify that “Many of these options are restricted specifically to a given race, but some can be taken by any characters who meet the requirements to do so.”
So the feat is legal. The question is simply whether it works for a VMC character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
VMC is already an alternate ruleset, so its interactions with anything are questionable, at best.
That being said, I have Chain Challenge on several VMC Cavaliers... because why not? I treat VMC as multiclassing, to make it work as easily as possible. You gave up your feat for access to that feature, it's yours... bought and paid for.
Thanks, VM!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does this count as the Challenge class feature for the purposes of the Chain Challenge feat?
Let's see: "Prerequisites: Challenge class feature, character level 7th." MC pg. 116 The feat asks for a class feature called "challenge".
"A character who selects this option doesn’t gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class as described on Table 2–8: Multiclass Character Advancement." PU pg. 88
This clearly states that the stuff VMC gives you are class features.
"Challenge: At 3rd level, he gains the ability to issue a challenge as a cavalier of his character level – 2 once per day. He adds the appropriate order adjustment to his challenge based on the order he selected." PU pg. 90
The class feature gained at 7th level is called "challenge".
So a 7th level character with VMC: Cavalier does have class feature called "challenge", and that's all the feat asks for. It's rather clear cut.
Let's see: "Prerequisites: Challenge class feature, character level 7th." MC pg. 116 The feat asks for a class feature called "challenge".
"A character who selects this option doesn’t gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class as described on Table 2–8: Multiclass Character Advancement." PU pg. 88
This clearly states that the stuff VMC gives you are class features."Challenge: At 3rd level, he gains the ability to issue a challenge as a cavalier of his character level – 2 once per day. He adds the appropriate order adjustment to his challenge based on the order he selected." PU pg. 90
The class feature gained at 7th level is called "challenge".So a 7th level character with VMC: Cavalier does have class feature called "challenge", and that's all the feat asks for. It's rather clear cut.
Thanks again, Derklord.
Follow on question: I suppose it’s too much to hope that the VMC Cavalier’s Challenge scales with level, so that they gain more uses every three levels beyond 3rd, right? I only ask because there’s some interesting variance across the various VMC classes with regard to the class features offered and the frequency available/duration.
The VMC challenge's scaling part is just for damage, the feature says that it's just once per day.
A way to gain more usage of "once per day" awarded by VMC could only be possible if there would be a feature saying something like the Champion of Irori PRC's Smite Chaos (gains an additional use of his paladin’s smite evil ability) for a VMC Paladin.
what?!?1st it doesn't say "just once per day". it say "once per day" calming that it can't be more then that is like claiming you do not gain an extra hit dice when you level since you only got one for level 1..
that is that and this is this. you got once for the multiclass and once more (or more) when you use the feat.all the feats by default let you do something you couldn't do without them
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Follow on question: I suppose it’s too much to hope that the VMC Cavalier’s Challenge scales with level, so that they gain more uses every three levels beyond 3rd, right?
Yeah, the "once per day" in the description of the VMC's challenge class feature sets the daily uses and overwrites the part of the regular Challenge description that grants additional uses. Doesn't make Chain Challenge not work, of course, as that one explicitly doesn't cost daily uses.
It's not exactly as claiming that.. anyway, let's compare the differences then:
Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
Challenging a foe requires much of the cavalier’s concentration. The cavalier takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his challenge.
The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious or until the combat ends. Each cavalier’s challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier’s order.
Challenge: At 3rd level, he gains the ability to issue a challenge as a cavalier of his character level – 2 once per day. He adds the appropriate order adjustment to his challenge based on the order he selected."As a calavier of his level-2" is the scaling part while the usage is just "once per day" as it lacks the scaling part "plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level".
If this wouldn't be the case the "once per day" part would have no reason to be added to the VMC feature as the scaling would have included daily usages too.
You are missing the point.
The fact vmc, or anything else to that matter,give you something used x per y doesnt exlude feats or other specific abilities to change that.
Is known as 'general Vs specific' in rule setting.
Allow me to keep this misunderstanding from growing.
@zza ni, I appreciate the points you’re making, but I don’t think FraVit was making the case you’re arguing against.
@FraVit, I get exactly what you’re saying and I agree with you. I believe zza ni simply thought you were making a different point—not that he was trying to put words in your mouth.
Thank you all for explaining the rules and qualifying your positions. Everything you said makes sense, and has helped me come to a conclusion with a character I was trying to design!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Phoebus: The most important question is to your GM: "Is it okay to take this feat from the hobgoblin section of the Monster Codex? It doesn't have a specific racial prerequisite."
Overall, sounds like a neat way to get more use out of it, for one battle.
@zza ni
What you missed were that my post were answering Phoebus Alexandros question about the scaling part (now quoted here below) and while doing so making an example of a way to increase an "once per day" VMC feature, never saying things like you are trying to push into my mouth.
Follow on question: I suppose it’s too much to hope that the VMC Cavalier’s Challenge scales with level, so that they gain more uses every three levels beyond 3rd, right? I only ask because there’s some interesting variance across the various VMC classes with regard to the class features offered and the frequency available/duration.
sorry, my bad, for some reason i read it as if you were saying he can't use it more then once per day.