The Mummy Archetype from Book of the Dead has a feat called Desiccating Inhalation. The text reads, Desiccating Inhalation wrote: You draw in the moisture from nearby creatures, draining them dry to heal your wounds. Creatures in a 30-foot cone take 6d8 negative damage, with a basic Reflex save against your class DC. A creature that critically fails this saving throw is also drained 1. As long as at least one creature was damaged by your Desiccating Inhalation, you regain HP equal to your level. There isn't any mention of a spell DC, as there are in other feats, like Mummy's Despair, which reads like, Mummy's Despair wrote: You force your mental anguish outward, projecting it upon those around you. You gain an aura of despair in a 30-foot emanation lasting 5 rounds. A creature that enters or begins its turn in the aura must succeed at a Will save against the higher of your class DC or spell DC or be frightened 1 (frightened 2 on a critical failure). A creature that succeeds at the save is temporarily immune to Mummy's Despair for 10 minutes. Emphasis mine. My question is, does this mean that Desiccating Inhalation is useless to spellcasters, since they don't have a class DC? Is there a rule about substituting the spell DC for a class DC somewhere I've missed? Or is this likely to be an error in printing?
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Probably an error in printing.
Putting in a general rule to merge together Class DC and Spellcasting DC of your primary class would make sense. Then Ancestry and General feats could reference that merged class stat instead of constantly having to specify to use whichever one you have.
Archetypes could still specify their own proficiency rating for the feats and spells that the archetype provides.
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It does appear that either spellcasters don't have a Spell DC
(because Paizo errated the Druid in the FAQ and said it shouldn't have had it)
Or
Spellcasters have a Class DC because of the character creation rules
but they aren't trained in it.
Either way Spellcasters don't have a functionally useful Class DC.
Most GMs will just let you use your Spell DC instead of Class DC as everyone is so used to that clause, that they don't notice when its not present.
Maybe it was a deliberate choice, but most people will assume that it is an error. I personally don't see why Mummy spell casters can't be a thing.
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It does feel weird for it to be omitted because it feels so much like a spell. I'll make the case for it just being an error in case it ever comes up at the table for anyone.
All classes have a class DC. Spellcasters just typically are untrained in it. Their DC is 10+class key ability bonus, so functionally useless yes. Some spellcasters are given exceptions in certain cases, like clerics with weapon spec effects iirc, but that's not a blanket rule. If would not make sense to allow spellcasters to replace class DC with spell DC in all cases because then you could get a situation where pure spellcasting classes who gain weapon spec effects have a higher DC than martial classes
Baarogue wrote: All classes have a class DC. Spellcasters just typically are untrained in it. Their DC is 10+class key ability bonus, so functionally useless yes. Some spellcasters are given exceptions in certain cases, like clerics with weapon spec effects iirc, but that's not a blanket rule. If would not make sense to allow spellcasters to replace class DC with spell DC in all cases because then you could get a situation where pure spellcasting classes who gain weapon spec effects have a higher DC than martial classes That's already the case though. Cleric crit specs work off their divine spell DC since they don't have a class DC.
Perpdepog wrote: That's already the case though. Cleric crit specs work off their divine spell DC since they don't have a class DC. Which is the point here. Most places the rules allow spell DC for class DC, but not all. Is that a deliberate choice or not?
Honestly I'm not really seeing the point of having two different terms.
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Gortle wrote: Perpdepog wrote: That's already the case though. Cleric crit specs work off their divine spell DC since they don't have a class DC. Which is the point here. Most places the rules allow spell DC for class DC, but not all. Is that a deliberate choice or not?
Honestly I'm not really seeing the point of having two different terms. I've only been able to find the one instance in class features: warpriest doctrine clerics using their deity's favored weapon. That's a very specific, restricted exception, not "most places."
Champions are given proficiency in their class DC AND divine spell DC, and they advance in proficiency in both at the same pace. Why not only one, if they are meant to be interchangeable?
Bards gain weapon specialization effects for a variety of weapons if they crit while their composition is active as a class feature at level 11. There is no mention of using their spell DC like there is for warpriests
Any pure spellcaster who has taken their weapon spec effect ancestry feat can get them as low as level 5. Their spell DC proficiency increases to expert at level 7, master at level 15 and legendary at level 19. Alchemists, monks, and rangers don't raise to expert in their class DC until level 9 and must wait for master until level 17. Barbarians, fighters, and rogues have to reach level 11 for their expert class DC, and level 19 for master. None of them reach legendary in their class DC. Why should a pure spellcaster's critical specialization effect DC outstrip any of those classes, let alone all of them?
Baarogue wrote: Gortle wrote: Perpdepog wrote: That's already the case though. Cleric crit specs work off their divine spell DC since they don't have a class DC. Which is the point here. Most places the rules allow spell DC for class DC, but not all. Is that a deliberate choice or not?
Honestly I'm not really seeing the point of having two different terms. I've only been able to find the one instance in class features: warpriest doctrine clerics using their deity's favored weapon. That's a very specific, restricted exception, not "most places." There is no need to distingish between class DC or spell DC in a class feature as a class typically only has the one.
If you look more broadly There are a few.
My point was they are not adding much real value. Its a complication which adds little to nothing to the game in return.
Baarogue wrote: Champions are given proficiency in their class DC AND divine spell DC, and they advance in proficiency in both at the same pace. Why not only one, if they are meant to be interchangeable? I didn't say the difference was real - just that it was a pointless complication.
For Champions all it does is make Champions dependant on two attributes Strength and Charisma. But its still ridiculous as it advances at the same rate. The net effect is too make a couple of poor focus spell totally worthless, not to actually encourage Champions to take Charisma.
Thank you for sharing that list. It was helpful to see in one place what types of feats they use that phrase for. Of note, they were all archetype or ancestry feats, and almost all were spell-like effects. The one notable outlier was Collapse Wall, which I would have expected to be class DC or the Engineering Lore granted by the archetype, whichever was higher, since it isn't a spell effect nor an ancestry feat and depends on the Demolitionist's expertise, not unlike the Exorcist's Cast Out feat. While I appreciate the information, I'm not here to debate your opinion of the rules, Gortle. You may play them however you wish at your table. I'm only interested in sharing what the rules are as written to my knowledge, or be educated if I am incorrect
I have been attempting to answer the questions posed in the OP I believe I know the answers to, which are "does this mean that Desiccating Inhalation is useless to spellcasters, since they don't have a class DC?" Practically, yes. "Is there a rule about substituting the spell DC for a class DC somewhere I've missed?" None I can find
As for the last question, "Or is this likely to be an error in printing?" It's not unlikely, since it looks like many of the other undead feats in the book are written with that same "class DC or spell DC, whichever is higher" phrase and many spell-like effects gained through archetypes share that wording. Discuss it with your GM and show him all the other undead feats supporting your suspicion it's an oversight, or play it however you want if you ARE the GM. It is pretty s**# for a spellcaster as is, so my money is on typo
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