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Heyo,
If I had a shield which has been enchanted as a +1 Impact Weapon (in addition to whatever armor side enchants it has), and I do a bull rush via the shield slam feat, what is my bonus to the maneuver from the shield?
The Combat Maneuver FAQ (https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lcom&page=3?Combat-Maneuvers -and-Weapon-Special-Features) implies that I'd get a +1 from using the weapon (shield bash) if it was just a +1 weapon without Impact. The wording of impact makes it clear that I'd at least get a +1 bonus:
In addition, any bull rush combat maneuver the wielder attempts while wielding the weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus; this includes all bull rush attempts, not only those in which a weapon is used, such as Bull Rush Strike, Shield Slam, or Unseat.[\quote]
Do I get a +1 bonus or a +2 bonus? Thanks!
The Combat Maneuver FAQ implies that I'd get a +1 from using the weapon (shield bash) if it was just a +1 weapon without Impact.
It doesn't imply anything. By default, only disarm, sunder, and trip use the weapon, and thus without Impact, you don't add your shield's enhancement bonus (or any other weapon-related bonus like from Weapon Focus) to a bull rush.
As for your question, Impact applies "a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus". Enhancement bonus is a bonus type, i.e. a numerical value (usually the weapon's +x). What you're thinking about is what the CRB calls "modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents)", i.e. the total bonus for pricing purposes, but that is not what Impact talks about.
i don't think he calculate it as '+1,impact' = a '+2 priced weapon' hence the +2. what he say is that faq say:
"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon"
- as in these are just what is normal, but there can be other cases where a weapon is used for a maneuver. and if it is such it should also get the weapon bonus to said maneuver.
so if you use a shield slam for a bullrush maneuver that FAQ imply that it too get the weapon bonus for said manuever. all this before going into the impact ability.
in his words " implies that I'd get a +1 from using the weapon (shield bash) if it was just a +1 weapon without Impact"
so he's actually asking something like:
if that is so, then when one use a +1 impact shield (weapon abilities) for a bull rush. does he get a +1 for the +1 or a +2 ,1 from the enhancement and one from the impact giving a bonus that is equal to said enhancement.
as for what it would do i'd say it doesn't stack. the impact assume he wield the weapon, but not using it for the manuever. so it works as if he does. but in cases where he actually does it won't double up. (both things let you add your +1 to the manuever, but you only get one +1 to add. it's the same '+1', you don't add it twice)
You get the actual bonus of the weapon which in this case is +1. You use the same bonus for the bull rush that you would use if you are using the shield to make a regular attack. This is no different than making an attack with an enchanted weapon. Does your +1 Holy sword give a +3 bonus to hit? No it gives you a +1 bonus to hit. That is because its actual enchantment bonus is +1 despite the fact that the holy enchantment increases the cost as if it were an additional +2 enchantment bonus.
The reason they do this is so when you start adding extra enchantments to a weapon the cost scales up appropriately. It also puts a cap on how many enchantments can be added to a weapon. Without this rule you could end up with a +5 Brilliant Energy, Unholy Vorpal sword.
+1 impact Shield (enchanted as a weapon)
Roll to hit (gets a +1 to hit)
hit is successful
Shield slam activates. granting a free bull rush.
Bull Rush is a combat maneuver, Combat maneuvers don't gain any weapon bonus.
Impact enhancement triggers. giving the CMB a bonus equal to the enhancement bonus of the shield, the shield has a +1 enhancement bonus.
So roll for Bull Rush with +1 bonus.
So a weapon basically has 10 slots for weapon enhancement. enhancements that give the weapon a property like Impact take up slots (in this case +2), but are not a actual valued weapon enhancement. So while the shield has used up 3 of it's weapon enhancement slots, the shields enhancement value is only +1 (but has the cost value of a +3)
You get the actual bonus of the weapon which in this case is +1. You use the same bonus for the bull rush that you would use if you are using the shield to make a regular attack. This is no different than making an attack with an enchanted weapon. Does your +1 Holy sword give a +3 bonus to hit? No it gives you a +1 bonus to hit. That is because its actual enchantment bonus is +1 despite the fact that the holy enchantment increases the cost as if it were an additional +2 enchantment bonus.
The reason they do this is so when you start adding extra enchantments to a weapon the cost scales up appropriately. It also puts a cap on how many enchantments can be added to a weapon. Without this rule you could end up with a +5 Brilliant Energy, Unholy Vorpal sword.
again, i really don't think the OP is saying that since '+1,impact' cost as a +2 weapon that is what it gives. what he tries to say that the 'shield slam' feat using a shield for a maneuver (bull-rsuh) should add the weapon enhancement to the maneuver roll (any shield used which is enhanced as a weapon. not talking about impact yet). the same as +1 rapier add +1 to sunder attacks.
his question was if that is so. if you also had the impact weapon ability on the shield which add the enhancement to bull rush. would you net a +2 for the roll. +1 for the weapon and +1 from the impact giving the weapon's +1 to bull rush. (to which i said it won't stack)
Argh, I forgot how totally abnormal Shield Slam works. So, here's the real deal:
The bull rush made via Shield Slam does not use a seperate check, but rather the already made attack roll. This attack roll is not in any way altered. Any weapon enhancement bonus on the shield is included in said attack roll, so in effect it is applied to the bull rush attempt, but any bonuses to CMB (from Impact, Improved Bull Rush, etc.) are irrelevant as no actual maneuver check is performed.
Of course, with no bonuses to combat maneuver checks being applied at any point, there isn't even a question of stacking.
i don't think he calculate it as '+1,impact' = a '+2 priced weapon' hence the +2. (...)
so he's actually asking something like:
if that is so, then when one use a +1 impact shield (weapon abilities) for a bull rush. does he get a +1 for the +1 or a +2 ,1 from the enhancement and one from the impact giving a bonus that is equal to said enhancement.
That makes sense - especially since Impact is a +2 enchantment, not +1. Derp.
.. Combat maneuvers don't gain any weapon bonus. ...
that is the whole point of the faq he tried to link. it say weapons do give their magical enhancement to some maneuvers. specifically those using a weapon to perform (normally sunder, trip & disarm. but not limited to them).
consider that faq there should be no difference between using a +1 rapier to sunder which give it's +1 to the sunder roll nd shield slam's bull rush using a +1 shield that was also enchanted as a +1 weapon, that should get the +1 to the bull rush check (the shield need a separate crafting as magical weapon for this. also in op original post).
Argh, I forgot how totally abnormal Shield Slam works. So, here's the real deal:
The bull rush made via Shield Slam does not use a seperate check, but rather the already made attack roll. This attack roll is not in any way altered. Any weapon enhancement bonus on the shield is included in said attack roll, so in effect it is applied to the bull rush attempt, but any bonuses to CMB (from Impact, Improved Bull Rush, etc.) are irrelevant as no actual maneuver check is performed.
Of course, with no bonuses to combat maneuver checks being applied at any point, there isn't even a question of stacking....
shield slam non withstanding. i think the FAQ make it clear that not only sunder, disarm and trip may enjoy a weapon's enhancement bonus to maneuvers
-if the weapon specifically is used for said maneuver.say a dan-bong used for a grapple check. (ignore for the moment it's own faulty mechanic of needing 2 free hands or taking -4 for the check, this is a mutant fighter with an extra limb or something).
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Dang, my formatting was messed up.
Thanks for the replies! Shield slam not having a separate attack roll for the bull rush attempt clears it up.
I guess the wording of impact had me a bit confused because I had recently read the wording on the Dueling weapon enchantment (the one from PFS field guide), which does explicitly state that you would double count the enhancement bonus from the weapon (in a +1 dueling whip would give a +2 bonus to trip attempts).
.. Combat maneuvers don't gain any weapon bonus. ...
that is the whole point of the faq he tried to link. it say weapons do give their magical enhancement to some maneuvers. specifically those using a weapon to perform (normally sunder, trip & disarm. but not limited to them).
consider that faq there should be no difference between using a +1 rapier to sunder which give it's +1 to the sunder roll nd shield slam's bull rush using a +1 shield that was also enchanted as a +1 weapon, that should get the +1 to the bull rush check (the shield need a separate crafting as magical weapon for this. also in op original post).
the FAQ would cause need for a GM fiat ruling. RAW, my comment stands.
I guess the wording of impact had me a bit confused because I had recently read the wording on the Dueling weapon enchantment (the one from PFS field guide), which does explicitly state that you would double count the enhancement bonus from the weapon (in a +1 dueling whip would give a +2 bonus to trip attempts).
A Dueling weapon grants three times the enhancement bonus to CMB for maneuvers made with a weapon, actually. That's because the effect of the enchantment explicitly is a luck bonus, though.
Very strict RAW, an Impact weapon would doubly apply its enhancement bonus (i.e. stack) for e.g. the bull rush from the Unseat feat. That's pretty clearly not intended, though, and a slight extrapolation of this FAQ makes it clear that for stacking purposes, "bonus equal to X bonus" is to be treated the same as an ordinary X bonus.
the FAQ would cause need for a GM fiat ruling. RAW, my comment stands.
No. "Combat maneuvers don't gain any weapon bonus." is an incorrect statement. Some combat maneuvers don't gain any weapon bonus, but others do, making your absolute statement false.