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The object glows, casting bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for the next 20 feet) like a torch.
I have a very important RAW question: does "like a torch" modify "the object glows" or "in a 20-foot radius" (which is incidentally true)? Or: does the effect of the Light spell have a torch-like quality or merely cast bright and dim light of the same radii as a torch?
Please grace us with an answer, Dr. Paizo, before my group starts trading blows.
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The object glows, casting bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for the next 20 feet) like a torch.I have a very important RAW question: does "like a torch" modify "the object glows" or "in a 20-foot radius" (which is incidentally true)? Or: does the effect of the Light spell have a torch-like quality or merely cast bright and dim light of the same radii as a torch?
Please grace us with an answer, Dr. Paizo, before my group starts trading blows.
Like a torch is there to complement the "in a 20-foot radius" part. First, because there's a comma after glows and none after the parentheses. But also because "The object glows [...] like a torch" doesn't seem right. I'm not a native english speakers, but for a me a torch doesn't glow.
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I'm guessing the debate could be around "from a reasonable distance, does it look like magic, or like a torch". Does it flicker? Does it emit smoke, does it look like it's burning something. Could you run up an say "helping I'm burning" as part of a deception check, etc?
To me, no to all of those. It doesn't emit smoke. It doesn't flicker, it's a soft steady light. It doesn't appear as flames, etc. The "like a torch" is only stating it has the same area of illumination, not any other torch-like appearance or properties.
I'm guessing the debate could be around "from a reasonable distance, does it look like magic, or like a torch". Does it flicker? Does it emit smoke, does it look like it's burning something. Could you run up an say "helping I'm burning" as part of a deception check, etc?
To me, no to all of those. It doesn't emit smoke. It doesn't flicker, it's a soft steady light. It doesn't appear as flames, etc. The "like a torch" is only stating it has the same area of illumination, not any other torch-like appearance or properties.
If that is the issue, then there's no canonical look basically for any of the game's spells. And there shouldn't be, everyone should have an ability to imagine and describe visual effects of their characters' spells. Unless it gives them mechanical advantage in relation to a spell's text.
So if a player wants their Light to look like a literal torch light, they should be allowed. Or glowing golden dust. Or glimmering violet mist. Or immaterial filament of light bulb.
What I think is still important is consistency - meaning that the choiсe should be permanent, the effect should not change for every spell casting. But it could be possible to change that narratively during the game.
Paizo has expressed this same view previously, maybe as far back as 3.X. For example, Web might come from phantom spiders from a Drow caster and might be globby strands from someone else, though the difference doesn't have any mechanical effect and is as easy to identify (barring other abilities). But like you say, it's what suits the caster's motif, lore, and traditions; and isn't subject to whim (though I could see a Wild Mage getting a unique result with each casting, each its own surprise).
So yeah, I think a Sprite's Light would likely differ from a Dwarf's which would differ from an Angel's. And that's all for the better in making a rich setting IMO.
It shouldn't be used to get any kind of advantage though. For example, it will look magical.
That shouldn't be the case necessarily. Recognizing something as magical asks for a check or a Detect Magic. There are plenty of cases where magical things appear as mundane (even outside illusion magic). And sometimes, it's even mundane things that look magical.
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It shouldn't be used to get any kind of advantage though. For example, it will look magical.That shouldn't be the case necessarily. Recognizing something as magical asks for a check or a Detect Magic. There are plenty of cases where magical things appear as mundane (even outside illusion magic). And sometimes, it's even mundane things that look magical.
I don't want a PC, or NPC for that matter, to pretend their Light looks perfectly mundane whereas another character's Light is obviously magical. It is the same spell and should not be treated differently in either case.
Now, I am all for an ability that changes how the spell looks like to gain some in-game advantage.
But the spell itself describes no such ability and thus will not provide it.
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I don't want a PC, or NPC for that matter, to pretend their Light looks perfectly mundane
Why?
If I play a Cleric of Sarenrae or Angradd and I want my light spell to look like a flame or a follower of Brigh and I want my light to look like a torchlight, would you say no?The rules don't state that a spell manifestation has to look magical. So, sure, the GM can always forbid something, but I'm not sure it's really problematic for a spell effect to look mundane (actually, a lot of spell effects look mundane).
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Would PCs act differently if they see people carrying torches or if they see people using a Light spell ? I think they would.
I have no problem with the visuals of the spell looking superficially similar to mundane effects though. As in, your Light spell can look however you wish. But do not expect NPCs to react to it as if it was something else than a Light spell.
YMMV obviously.
Anyway, you do as you want as a GM. But I very often had to interact or cast Detect Magic to determine that a burning torch hanging on the wall was actually a continual light spell.
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Anyway, you do as you want as a GM. But I very often had to interact or cast Detect Magic to determine that a burning torch hanging on the wall was actually a continual light spell.
Very often? How often does that not only matter if there were to be a continual flame, but also happens to be one in the vicinity? Your logic is sound enough regardless, but I'm legit curious how this has come up so often in games you've played. Is there like a PFS scenario where it's relevant that you've played several times or something? I'm struggling to think of another reason why it would be a recurring thing.
Anyway, you do as you want as a GM. But I very often had to interact or cast Detect Magic to determine that a burning torch hanging on the wall was actually a continual light spell.Very often? How often does that not only matter if there were to be a continual flame, but also happens to be one in the vicinity? Your logic is sound enough regardless, but I'm legit curious how this has come up so often in games you've played. Is there like a PFS scenario where it's relevant that you've played several times or something? I'm struggling to think of another reason why it would be a recurring thing.
Yes, very often. Every time you see a torch in a dungeon, it's important to know if someone is lighting it regularly or if it's magical and as such can be there for ages. It's a bit like looking for tracks, it's a way to know what you'll face.
But it's true that in PFS you often go into abandoned tombs and old places. So it may raise the issue more often than in a campaign where you know you face opponents that are alive.Also, at low level, Continual Flames are loot!!!!
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The moment the GM allows for stylistic effects on light is the moment their players and I start using them for signal flares via brightly colored glowing arrows.
It wouldn't take much to develop a code system akin to the naval signal flags where mixed colors, level of brightness, pulses, sparks, or whatever other stylization you can dream up have specific meaning to those using them.
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The moment the GM allows for stylistic effects on light is the moment their players and I start using them for signal flares and high-in-the-sky flag codes via brightly colored glowing arrows.
Nobody's been saying the caster chooses with each casting, but rather that their Light spell has one specific effect, and for flavor purposes at that. So you could work out faux signal flares if you had multiple casters available, but I'd say that's fine given Cantrips slots are more valuable than for use as such a signal. Heck, casting Ray of Frost at distinct angles (perhaps in set sequences) would work too out to good distance.
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If you have Dancing Lights, it's easy to make signals: 1 light, 2 lights, 3 lights or 4 lights are each a distinct signal. And if your lights have different colors, there are even more combinations.
But you rarely need to get to that level of complexity. One signal or 2 is enough.
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If you have Dancing Lights, it's easy to make signals: 1 light, 2 lights, 3 lights or 4 lights are each a distinct signal. And if your lights have different colors, there are even more combinations.
But you rarely need to get to that level of complexity. One signal or 2 is enough.
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!
sorry couldn't help myself.
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If you have Dancing Lights, it's easy to make signals: 1 light, 2 lights, 3 lights or 4 lights are each a distinct signal. And if your lights have different colors, there are even more combinations.
But you rarely need to get to that level of complexity. One signal or 2 is enough.
sorry couldn't help myself.
X'D
Love that scene!
You just made my day.
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[url= https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Continual%20flame]Continual FlameYes, very often. Every time you see a torch in a dungeon, it's important to know if someone is lighting it regularly or if it's magical and as such can be there for ages. It's a bit like looking for tracks, it's a way to know what you'll face.
. . .
Also, at low level, Continual Flames are loot!!!!
explicitly doesn’t generate heat. Why would Detect Magic or skill check be necessary to figure out why the torch that generates no heat is not a non-magical flame?
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Nobody's been saying the caster chooses with each casting, but rather that their Light spell has one specific effect, and for flavor purposes at that.
I sort of split the difference because as a GM I probably would allow a player to choose the “flavor” of a spell with each casting, but unless it’s an illusion or something in the spell text makes clear that the manifestation is not obviously a magical, whatever manifestation the player chooses would be obviously magical.
So if a player wanted to spend a few rounds casting and dismissing Light in different colors to send a signal, I’d have no problem with that, but if there’s a torch in a sconce with a Light spell, anyone looking at it would recognize it as magical. The relevant mechanics would apply for a PC (as opposed to the player, of course), to recognize it specifically as the Light spell, though.
Anyway, you do as you want as a GM. But I very often had to interact or cast Detect Magic to determine that a burning torch hanging on the wall was actually a continual light spell.
These are my words, please don't change them.