This turns out to be trickier that I thought, I recently discovered my understanding was not 100% correct so I've done a bit of research. So hence this discussion. Let me know if I've still got anything wrong. I'm going to spread this over a few posts.
For background please read Immunity and Damage. Also remember the rules for subordinate actions The subordinate action doesn’t gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified.
Finally in CRB page 451 this section was silently removed from the CRB 2nd printing without explanation or notice. Presumably because it was wrong. This rule does not exist anymore:
Damage types and Traits
When an attack deals a type of damage, the attack action gains that trait. For example, the Strikes and attack actions you use wielding a sword when its flaming rune is
active gain the fire trait, since the rune gives the weapon the ability to deal fire damage.
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Effects and Damage
The game defines ability as basically anything specific described in the rules. An effect is the result of an ability. So both are very broad game terms you can find in the glossary. Traits and damage types are enumerated in the rules, go look them up. But if I use property or characteristic I’m just using generic English words. Magical is a trait but it is also just a property of damage.
So these are two different things. You can be immune to effects. You can be immune to a type of damage. Typically these are indicated by traits. But there are only so many types of damage, not every trait has a damage type. Some are just extra characteristics of an effect or damage.
Example Magic is a trait and an effect. Damage can still be magical, the rules refer to but there is not a magic damage type. Magical is just another flavour of damage, that is an additional descriptor. For example it is magical fire damage or magical piercing damage, it just can’t be only magical damage. Presence of a magical school trait (eg Illusion) or a magical tradition trait (eg Primal) also means the effect is magical. Even simple spell attacks are magical as they belong to a magical tradition.
Mental is a trait. There are mental effects and mental damage. But not all mental effects are magical, some are from natural skills.
Polymorph is a trait. There are polymorph effects but no polymorph damage. Not all polymorph effects are magical, some are alchemical.
Fire is two traits. It is an elemental effect, and a damage type. Not all fire effects are magical, not all fire damage is magical.
Water is an elemental trait but not a damage type. Water effects typically do Bludgeoning or Cold damage.
Physical is a group of traits Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing. This type of damage can be magical or not.
Energy is a group of traits. But note that Positive damage only affects undead, and Negative damage only affects living creatures.
Alignment traits and damage. Note that all player characters can have alignment traits by default. Aligned damage only affects creatures with the opposite alignment trait.
Then there are arbitrary extra properties or characteristics on weapons and other effects: e.g. silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron, darkwood. These sometimes show up in immunity and resistance situations. They are just extra descriptors for damage very much like magical is. The cases I’ve listed are all precious materials.
So what does it mean:
a) Something that is immune to magical spells is just immune to spells, but is not immune to everything with a magical trait.
b) Something that is immune to magical spells and effects is immune to spells and everything with a magical trait. But Strikes with a runed(magical) weapon does not have any magic trait so that still inflicts magical damage !?! Why? Because we know damage is different to effects.
c) Something that is immune to magic period would be very tough. Because this level of immunity would be to magical damage as well. Fortunately all the cases of magic immunity all seem to have extra text limiting it in some way.
d) Magic can be suppressed or negated. In which case there is no damage or effect to be immune to.
Abilities
Let’s look at some spells, attacks, equipment and see what they are in terms of effect and damage.
a) A Strike with a runed weapon is not a magical effect but the damage is magical because of the magical traits on the potency runes (check the rule in the link). A Flaming Rune on a longsword does magical fire damage in addition to magical slashing damage of the sword. The Strike itself is not magical, so it works in an antimagic field.
b) Fireball does fire damage and the effect that caused it is a magical spell so the damage also counts as magical damage.
c) Summon Animal is a magical effect but it does damage via a summoned creature. That creature is not inherently magical so it typically does non magical physical damage when it later attacks. It is possible certain summoned creatures might do magical damage but that would depend on the creature. We can’t just assume that a creature created by a spell does magical damage, the rule on subordinate actions reminds us that we would need something specific to tell us that it is magical.
d) Alchemist’s Fire is not magical at all; it just does mundane fire damage. Nothing about Alchemists, Inventors, Gunslingers or their equipment is magic per se. That is till they put runes on things.
e) Spiritual Weapon is a magic effect, the weapon strike continues to use spell attacks so they do magical force damage, or optionally magical piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage.
f) Weapon Surge is a magical effect but it is tacked on to a normal weapon Strike. That Strike is not a magical effect because of the subordinate action rules. This spell doesn’t make the damage magical, but runes on the weapon might.
g) Telekinetic Projectile is a magical effect, it does magical damage of type bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Because being made of a material is not a magical property or a trait, with the right object the damage can also technically have properties of silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron like any regular weapon.
h) Darkness the spell has a magical effect. You would think that if you are immune to magical effects then the darkness would be negated for you. But there is a trick here. Darkness specifically suppresses the light, so it is not acting against a target that could be immune to it. So you need areas of magic immunity to stop this.
i) Wall of Stone is not magical after it is created, it just is. Whereas Wall of Force has a duration and is magical. Something immune to magical effects and not otherwise stopped by Force could move through a Wall of Force.
j) Monk’s Mystic Strikes makes the actual unarmed attacks magical. Which means from level 3 a Monk’s Strikes, Trips, Grapples do magical damage. Handwraps are on top of this and in themselves when they have runes do also make the damage magical. Sadly they can’t turn this power off, but monks can pick up a mundane weapon if they need to. Because of the wording in the power I’m going to assume that Mystic Strike don’t get the magical trait so they aren’t a magic effect - i.e. they are just like magical weapons.
k) Magus strikes are magical effects that do magical damage from Arcane Cascade and from Spell Strike. A Magus can choose not to do either of these but they won’t be happy about it.
l) BattleForms there is a clause in the polymorph rules Any Strikes specifically granted by a polymorph effect are magical. A dragon’s breath weapon and a Phoenix Shroud have the Evocation trait so it looks like most of the secondary effects are magical too. Note that there are some alchemical polymorph effects but none of these grant strikes. They are still non magical.
m) A Summoner’s Eidolon mostly plays like any summoned creature. It's just that it is fairly straightforward to get the effects of handwraps on it. So after a few levels it’s attacks are likely magical.
Situations
Let’s look at some creatures and situations for practical examples. The bottom line here is it is very varied.
a) Antimagic: So no magic effects work, no magic items work, but everything falls back to its mundane equivalent so Strikes do normal un-runed damage. Because it includes effects in an area it does take down effects like magical darkness.
b) Globe of Invulnerability: Only effects spells, areas and targets. So other magical effects are fine. I don’t think it stops summoned creatures that are summoned outside, on the basis that summoning has no area or target. Magic weapons work fine in a globe.
c) Stone Golem:
Immunities ... magic (see below); Resistances physical 10 (except adamantine)
Golem Antimagic A golem is immune to spells and magical abilities other than its own, but each type of golem is affected by a few types of magic in special ways.
The immunity is specified here - it is spells and magical abilities ie effects. Normal weapon strikes with magical weapons are not magical effects, so they just have to deal with the resistance. But a strike from a Dinosaur via a Druid Wild Shape is a magical effect, so it will just fail to do anything.
d) Will-o’-Wisp:
Immunities magic
Magic Immunity A will-o’-wisp is immune to all spells except faerie fire, glitterdust, magic missile, and maze.
The magic immunity is defined for Will-o’-Wisp to be just spells. You need to go for any weapon magical or not, a Summoned Animal, or one of the listed spell exceptions.
e) Aluum:
Immunities ... magic (see below), mental ...; Resistances 10 physical (except adamantine)
Aluum Antimagic Aluum enforcers are immune to spells and magical abilities, with two exceptions.
Like the Golem just better as the exceptions are narrower.
f) Ghost Mage:
Immunities death effects, disease, paralyzed, poison, precision, unconscious; Resistances all damage 10 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical)
By this level just about everything you do will be magical damage. Some obvious things you can do to get past the resistances as a caster. Be careful what you summon though as it could well be doing mundane damage still. Alchemists will want a magical option. Unfortunately Ghosts are also Incorporeal:
g) Incorporeal says a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures and vice versa. Oops, attack rolls are checks.
So finesse attacks are fine, because all incorporeal creatures seem to have them so they can hurt the party. It is curious as this is one type of undead that your Rogue/Swashbuckler will likely be better against than your normal heavy hitters.The rules for damage give an example of a strength based check, a mace damaging a ghost which are all incorporeal. I guess we have to assume that that mace had the ghost touch rune.
Many people assume that this is a mistake and presume all this rule is saying is that you can’t grapple or trip incorporeal creatures, but hitting them is fine especially with a magical weapon. That could be true. But I can reasonably play the game the way the rules read so why shouldn’t I? It does mean a Ghost Rune is valuable in some encounters, and some parties will need to run away from incorporeal undead till they get their tactics sorted out.
h) Vampire Count:
Immunities death effects, disease, paralyze, poison, sleep; Resistances physical 7 (except magical silver);
Magical or not doesn’t matter - this vampire is resistant to bludgeoning/ piercing/ slashing. Some specific immunities. Get yourself some silver.
i) Guthallath:
Immunities bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, healing, magic (see below), necromancy, nonlethal attacks, paralyzed, poison, sickened, unconscious; Resistances physical 15 (except adamantine)
Immunity to Magic The guthallath is immune to spells of lower than 7th level and the activated effects of magic items of lower than 14th level.
Curiously immune to spells by level. Some specific immunities. Get yourself some adamantine.
Anyway the weird stuff is Strikes not being magical effects just magic damage,
Incorporeal being effected by finesse but 100% immune to Strength based magical weapons,
and Darkness working against magic immune creatures - though most have darkvision so yeah.
g) is wrong:
An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.
Strikes are not strength based checks, they are attack rolls.
and also in the Incorporeal trait itself it says An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects...unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune
Ghost Touch runes go on weapons.
So it is specifically mentioned in the rules in several contexts. I'm not seeing how I can agree with you. A Skill check that would be something else, but that is not what they said.
A check is a fundamental thing in the game, and attack roll is one of the 5 specific checks.
g) Telekinetic Projectile is a magical effect, it does magical damage of type bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Because being made of a material is not a magical property or a trait, with the right object the damage can also technically have properties of silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron like any regular weapon.
No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage.
Your assertion about TP being able to cause material type damage is wrong. TP cannot use traits, and the trait of Silver, Adamantine, etc is Precious. A TP can not be considered a material for damage resistance etc.
Yeah, in general I can agree with this. I have some differences in how I run things that I will mention since you asked.
a) A Strike with a runed weapon is not a magical effect but the damage is magical because of the magical traits on the potency runes (check the rule in the link). A Flaming Rune on a longsword does magical fire damage in addition to magical slashing damage of the sword. The Strike itself is not magical, so it works in an antimagic field.
More of a clarification since you didn't mention one way or the other. Correct on that the Strike action does not become magical and the weapon damage from the fundamental runes is magical damage, but not a magical ability. The fire damage from the flaming rune is a magical ability though. It is being generated from a magical item attached to the weapon and ends up being a separate instance of damage too (useful when calculating damage reduction from Champion reaction for instance). Also, since the fire damage is a magical fire effect it would interact with the same things that fire spells would. Such as not working underwater and triggering golem immunities.
g) Telekinetic Projectile is a magical effect, it does magical damage of type bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Because being made of a material is not a magical property or a trait, with the right object the damage can also technically have properties of silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron like any regular weapon.
Telekinetic Projectile has a clause in its rules that strips the item of all of its properties and traits. I can see and follow your reasoning that the material that the item is made from is not one of the properties and traits that would be stripped, but I don't feel that this is RAI. It is technically RAW though.
g) Incorporeal says a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures and vice versa. Oops, attack rolls are checks.
So finesse attacks are fine, because all incorporeal creatures seem to have them so they can hurt the party. It is curious as this is one type of undead that your Rogue/Swashbuckler will likely be better against than your normal heavy hitters.The rules for damage give an example of a strength based check, a mace damaging a ghost which are all incorporeal. I guess we have to assume that that mace had the ghost touch rune.
Many people assume that this is a mistake and presume all this rule is saying is that you can’t grapple or trip incorporeal creatures, but hitting them is fine especially with a magical weapon. That could be true. But I can reasonably play the game the way the rules read so why shouldn’t I? It does mean a Ghost Rune is valuable in some encounters, and some parties will need to run away from incorporeal undead till they get their tactics sorted out.
Again, this is technically RAW. But is clearly not RAI. Why would the incorporeal creatures list an amount of damage reduction to non-magical (mundane) damage if it is not possible to use a normal, mundane, STR-based attack to do any damage to them at all? That should probably be errata/houserule changed to be STR-based skill actions, but not attack rolls. Though, as you said, you could certainly run the game as-written.
Another strange interaction with it would be Investigator that can make physical INT-based attack rolls. So just like finesse weapon attacks, those would work fine.
g) Telekinetic Projectile is a magical effect, it does magical damage of type bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Because being made of a material is not a magical property or a trait, with the right object the damage can also technically have properties of silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron like any regular weapon.No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage.Your assertion about TP being able to cause material type damage is wrong. TP cannot use traits, and the trait of Silver, Adamantine, etc is Precious. A TP can not be considered a material for damage resistance etc.
Technically Gortle is correct on that. The Materials rules never actually use the word 'traits'. So the item's material composition would not be either the 'specific traits' or 'magical properties' that Telekinetic Projectile removes.
Though I did have to look up and read through the rules again to double check that. As well as change my own response mid-post. Because I thought the same thing initially.
Technically Gortle is correct on that. The Materials rules never actually use the word 'traits'. So the item's material composition would not be either the 'specific traits' or 'magical properties' that Telekinetic Projectile removes.
Though I did have to look up and read through the rules again to double check that. As well as change my own response mid-post. Because I thought the same thing initially.
This is what I'm basing it on:
Valuable materials with special properties have the precious trait. They can be substituted for base materials when you Craft items.
A straight RAW reading would be that the object flung loses all traits, so that would include the Precious trait of the material, so a silver ingot flung has no more effect than a rock against a werewolf. Also fits with the general power level expected of a cantrip.
This is what I'm basing it on:
Valuable materials with special properties have the precious trait. They can be substituted for base materials when you Craft items.A straight RAW reading would be that the object flung loses all traits, so that would include the Precious trait of the material, so a silver ingot flung has no more effect than a rock against a werewolf. Also fits with the general power level expected of a cantrip.
Hmm... Maybe. Though it could also be that it simply loses the 'precious' trait and becomes ... non-precious silver?
Also the argument only works for some of the materials. Wood, for example, would still be wood. Because it wasn't precious to begin with.
This is what I'm basing it on:
Valuable materials with special properties have the precious trait. They can be substituted for base materials when you Craft items.A straight RAW reading would be that the object flung loses all traits, so that would include the Precious trait of the material, so a silver ingot flung has no more effect than a rock against a werewolf. Also fits with the general power level expected of a cantrip.Hmm... Maybe. Though it could also be that it simply loses the 'precious' trait and becomes ... non-precious silver?
Also the argument only works for some of the materials. Wood, for example, would still be wood. Because it wasn't precious to begin with.
Wood, and stone, might be the exceptions to this, but everything else loses a trait of being 'a valuable material with special properties'. Silver without its special properties is just soft metal, so not so useful against excited upright puppies and infernal fiends.
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i) Wall of Stone is not magical after it is created, it just is. Whereas Wall of Force has a duration and is magical. Something immune to magical effects and not otherwise stopped by Force could move through a Wall of Force.
This is a fascinating implication of the rules as written (or at least as they would seem to be). On the one hand, I don't think you can reasonably argue that a creature stopped by a Wall of Force is not being affected by it in a common sense of the word. On the other hand, it seems strange to imagine that a solid barrier, even one created by magic, would be bypassed simply by being immune to the magic which sustains it.
I'm sure there are several corner cases that are at least as weird caught up in the various flavours of magic immunity, but this has the same taste as allowing a magic-immune creature to see magically invisible creatures because it is immune to the effect which makes them invisible. There is a distinction to be sure (physically interacting with the wall etc.) but it carries a similar sense of "I don't think this is the intended interaction".
Personally, I would probably allow a wall of force to block a will-o-wisp or golem without disruption, but I see the argument.
PS. For what it's worth, I'm thoroughly in agreement with the objection that immunity to non-finesse melee strikes is almost certainly an unintended casualty of the language. It strikes me as nonsensical to explain, regardless how technically correct.
Technically Gortle is correct on that. The Materials rules never actually use the word 'traits'. So the item's material composition would not be either the 'specific traits' or 'magical properties' that Telekinetic Projectile removes.
Though I did have to look up and read through the rules again to double check that. As well as change my own response mid-post. Because I thought the same thing initially.
This is what I'm basing it on:
Valuable materials with special properties have the precious trait. They can be substituted for base materials when you Craft items.A straight RAW reading would be that the object flung loses all traits, so that would include the Precious trait of the material, so a silver ingot flung has no more effect than a rock against a werewolf. Also fits with the general power level expected of a cantrip.
Well aware of this. It came up in the discussion a year or so ago. I can't find merit in this line of thought.
What has the trait "precious" is the material, not the finished product.
Look up the specific magic weapons. Such as Holy Avenger is said to be made of cold iron. But there is no Cold Iron trait. It simply doesn't exist when you look at traits Yes Precious is a Trait but its not on the weapon it is on the materials. Consider Torag's Silver Anvil there is no silver trait, no precious trait.
Further Precious is not a trait that would do anything resistance or immune wise. It is Silver or Adamantine that count.
Finally Wood - which does show up for resistance - is not a precious or a Precious material at all. It is just a mundane material.
Yeah, in general I can agree with this. I have some differences in how I run things that I will mention since you asked.
a) A Strike with a runed weapon is not a magical effect but the damage is magical because of the magical traits on the potency runes (check the rule in the link). A Flaming Rune on a longsword does magical fire damage in addition to magical slashing damage of the sword. The Strike itself is not magical, so it works in an antimagic field.More of a clarification since you didn't mention one way or the other. Correct on that the Strike action does not become magical and the weapon damage from the fundamental runes is magical damage, but not a magical ability. The fire damage from the flaming rune is a magical ability though. It is being generated from a magical item attached to the weapon and ends up being a separate instance of damage too (useful when calculating damage reduction from Champion reaction for instance). Also, since the fire damage is a magical fire effect it would interact with the same things that fire spells would. Such as not working underwater and triggering golem immunities.
Agreed. Totally fine with that.
g) Telekinetic Projectile is a magical effect, it does magical damage of type bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Because being made of a material is not a magical property or a trait, with the right object the damage can also technically have properties of silver, adamantine, wood, cold iron like any regular weapon.Telekinetic Projectile has a clause in its rules that strips the item of all of its properties and traits. I can see and follow your reasoning that the material that the item is made from is not one of the properties and traits that would be stripped, but I don't feel that this is RAI. It is technically RAW though.
You have missquoted the critical point there.
No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage. Non-magical properties are not mentioned.I'm not really ready to go to RAI unless I see that RAW is seriously off. I don't see that it is here. Especially when most people still prefer to Electric Arc. We are never going to get this group to agree on RAI anyway.
g) Incorporeal says a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures and vice versa. Oops, attack rolls are checks.
... Again, this is technically RAW. But is clearly not RAI. Why would the incorporeal creatures list an amount of damage reduction to non-magical (mundane) damage if it is not possible to use a normal, mundane, STR-based attack to do any damage to them at all? That should probably be errata/houserule changed to be STR-based skill actions, but not attack rolls. Though, as you said, you could certainly run the game as-written.
Another strange interaction with it would be Investigator that can make physical INT-based attack rolls. So just like finesse weapon attacks, those would work fine.
My first thought here was to think was the same as you, that this could not have been intended. But when I look at all the incorporeal creatures they have all got Finesse attacks. It looks liks it was very specifically done. It is odd, but it is workable.
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Regarding Telekinetic Projectile, I actually sidestep the entire problem with a houserule. Telekinetic Projectile doesn't use an existing object at all - it becomes a conjuration spell and creates a temporary item to hurl.
* It bypasses anyone thinking that they are going to be getting traits from the choice of item that they use (no you can't hurl your +2 greater striking dagger to increase the damage, or a silver ingot to ignore resistance of a lycanthrope).
* It bypasses any problems with not having a suitable object in the area (no you don't need to carry a bag of marbles, nails, and razor blades).
* It avoids any shenanigans of players trying to use it as a makeshift mage hand to get some important item from a hard to reach area or from a trapped pedestal (no you can't TP the mcguffin item into the party's barbarian and then run off with it).
Regarding Telekinetic Projectile, I actually sidestep the entire problem with a houserule. Telekinetic Projectile doesn't use an existing object at all - it becomes a conjuration spell and creates a temporary item to hurl.
* It bypasses anyone thinking that they are going to be getting traits from the choice of item that they use (no you can't hurl your +2 greater striking dagger to increase the damage, or a silver ingot to ignore resistance of a lycanthrope).
* It bypasses any problems with not having a suitable object in the area (no you don't need to carry a bag of marbles, nails, and razor blades).
* It avoids any shenanigans of players trying to use it as a makeshift mage hand to get some important item from a hard to reach area or from a trapped pedestal (no you can't TP the mcguffin item into the party's barbarian and then run off with it).
Hadn't thought of that last one. Hmm.
My solution for the others was to conceive of Telekinetic Projectile as wrapping the object in a sheath of force (albeit not Force energy) which takes a similar shape as the item yet gets zero other traits (in any sense, not just Traits) from the item.That would explain why vials of acid don't break, teeny items hit as hard as bigger ones, softer like harder, etc. It's because only the outer "shell" hits the target, and the inner part's only for form.
There's precedent for this with PF1's Kineticist so it's not some ad hoc/post hoc explanation (at least not only!).
Though yeah, hadn't thought about macguffins! It's a 1st level solution to lots of "reach the object" obstacles. Doh! And you'd have to place items at least 65' away due to Reach Spell, and that's extraordinary. Or just glue every such macguffin down. :-P
I don't see why any of those are a problem with Telekinetic Projectile.
The trait rules are clear. Getting effectively a + 5 damage on a cantrip versus a small set of monsters is a non issue balance wise and a reasonable reward for thinking about your enemy.
An action to get or drop a bag of items is not a big deal, you can avoid the action easily enough by having a few items in hand and dropping them as a free action at the start of the encounter.
Why not use it as a mage hand - apply some damage to the object thrown of course - it has to be loose, appropriately sized, unattended and within range. There are plenty of limitations there.
None of these are significant issues. For sure if you want to tweak everything then go for it. I would actively encourage that. It is your game. But there are no problems in this section of the base rules that require you to do that.
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None of these are significant issues. For sure if you want to tweak everything then go for it. I would actively encourage that. It is your game. But there are no problems in this section of the base rules that require you to do that.
Agreed, none of these are huge problems. But it also isn't a huge tweak.
Mostly it is because I am playing with people who are not big rules lawyers and don't read things very carefully. It is simply easier to describe Telekinetic Projectile as conjuring a new item rather than having to have long discussions explaining why their ad-hoc game plans don't technically work according to the rules.