| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know this has been discussed before, but I couldn't quickly find a thread about it, so I made this one, hoping that I can point people to it in the future.
I was in a game recently where we faced a monster that did fire damage to weapons that struck it in combat. It was something like 1d6 fire damage. When I explained that this doesn't do anything, by the rules, I was met with derision and incredulity.
When I showed the actual text, there was still a general feeling of "there must be an FAQ" and "this has to be a mistake".
So here we go, from the SRD:
"Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s hit points."
"Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object’s hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects."
"Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness."
"Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer."
"Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits."
"Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item’s hit points."
"Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness."
Now, putting all this together; if I strike a creature and my +2 longsword takes 4 fire damage, that damage is halved to 2 and then reduced by the sword's 14 hardness to 0; UNLESS the GM rules that steel swords are vulnerable to fire, in which case it takes 8 fire damage to it's 25 hit points.
There is no guideline to what is vulnerable and what isn't other than common sense (which is, sadly, not that common; the GM in this case ruled that a wooden shield was vulnerable to fire, "because wood", despite the fact that wood can actually be quite hard to set alight, but even then, a +2 heavy wooden shield has 35 hit points, so it's not exactly easy to destroy this way.
But he was still very put out by the fact that, unless "steel" is vulnerable to fire, the monster's special ability only really affects Monks and natural weapons.
If there are more comments about this aspect of the rules (including anything I may have missed), please share them, so future generations can be enlightened.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Most creatures that I have seen deal the damage to the creature striking with a non-reach weapon. That usually means the character striking the creature takes damage.
Wood could be considered vulnerable to fire. That would mean any wood weapon takes damage and they usually have a lot less HP than steel.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to know the specific monster that you were fighting when this happened, that way we can know exactly what the ability does that causes this damage.
Those rules you quoted for damaging objects are for both Attended and Unattended Objects, but your wielded weapon would be considered an Attended Object. Attended Objects follow additional rules to cause damage to them, and you might even have an extra "layer" of protection by being able to use your Reflex save before any damage can even be considered.
Saving Throws
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pizza Lord nailed it.
If your GM thinks that solid wood (not twigs) is vulnerable to fire, he should do a little experiment (taking care of doing it in a safe way):
- lit a fireplace, maybe the preparation from a barbecue can work too;
- toss a solid piece of wood in it;
- recover it with a pair of tongs;
- look how much damage was done to the wood.
The wood will stay in the fire for a longer time than your weapon was in contact with the creature, but the damage will be irrelevant. And a lith fireplace does 1d6 damage to the creature touching it, so the damage is comparable.
He can do the same for a paperback he doesn't care about. If it is closed it will take very little damage. Only if it is open individual pages will burn almost immediatly.
I am having a hard time finding the exact creature*, though I have noticed that several creatures with similar abilities, like the Thoqqua, do have language that states that damage isn't halved by the ability (and in the Thoqqua's case, Hardness is reduced by 5). So I may have tripped over an edge case.
I saw a few references to vulnerability only increasing damage by 50% or causing the weapon to take normal damage, when the text states "double the normal damage". Not sure if that's the result of vulnerability functioning differently for creatures or not.
*In retrospect, I wouldn't put it past my GM to use a 3rd Party monster without reading it carefully, as often such creatures don't rigidly adhere to the guidelines for monsters or the rules set of the game.
Thanks for the comments though- I distinctly recall seeing a discussion on this topic before, but I couldn't find it to point people towards. How things deal damage to objects is often this huge grey area in Pathfinder, and it's different from 3.5, which had sonic attacks ignoring hardness, for example. Having a place where you can say "no look, go here, this explains it" is a good thing, even if Pathfinder 1e is no longer supported (boo, hiss).
|
|
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object’s hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion.
Ranged Weapon Damage: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar—
see page 434). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness.Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities.
Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item’s hit points.
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness.
There are 4 paragraphs between the description of how energy attacks work and Vulnerability to Certain Attacks. While the two paragraphs affect each other, they aren't directly related and the text of Vulnerability doesn't replace the text of Energy Attacks.
They are both applied to the same attack.You get the normal damage for the energy attack by halving it, then, if the target is particularly vulnerable you double it and don't apply hardness.
Some energy types being particularly effective is another matter again. The wording is noticeably different: "Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects" and "Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects."
Without clarification from the Developers, it is hard to guess what they meant by this difference, but my personal interpretation is that the first phrase means "Some energy type deal extra damage against some substance or shape of objects, increasing the damage by an amount set by the GM", while the second mean "Delivering the attacks in some specific way (like firing siege engines against a wall) will deal double the normal damage and negate hardness".
To make an example with energy attacks and particularly successful attacks against objects, a trebuchet firing burning greek fire barrels against a wooden building is way more efficient in delivering the damage than placing the barrel against the side of the building and igniting it.
it all depends on the GM interpretation.
I don't know, it sounds like it would have been far easier to say that damage to a vulnerable object isn't halved or that it deals normal damage instead of "first you halve the damage then you double it". Because that creates the following scenario:
I deal 9 fire damage to an ice wall. Since I'm using an energy attack, the damage is reduced to 4.5, or 4. Then because the GM rules that "ice walls" are vulnerable to fire, I deal double damage, or 8?
Your point is correct that it doesn't specifically contradict the general rules, and thus that is RAW, but it seems really easy to divine the intent using Occam's Razor. Just my 2 cp.
It does seem pretty ridiculous, but I'm considering whether or not it's worth it to buy a Quenching weapon just in case this happens again.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abi lities/quenching/
While I couldn't find the culprit that I made this thread for, I did find this-
Demon, Babau
Protective Slime (Su): A layer of acidic slime coats a babau’s skin. Any creature that strikes a babau with a natural attack or unarmed strike takes 1d8 points of acid damage from this slime if it fails a DC 18 Reflex save. A creature that strikes a babau with a melee weapon must make a DC 18 Reflex save or the weapon takes 1d8 points of acid damage; if this damage penetrates the weapon’s hardness, the weapon gains the broken condition. Ammunition that strikes a babau is automatically destroyed after it inflicts its damage.
This Protective Slime ability is precisely what I'm talking about upthread; you should have a reflex save to avoid damage (using YOUR reflex save if higher than the magic item's own reflex save). The creature in question would require a specific ability that somehow circumvents this general rule, so if it doesn't have an ability with specific rule > general rule, then your weapon shouldn't take any damage unless you fail the reflex save.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This Protective Slime ability is precisely what I'm talking about upthread; you should have a reflex save to avoid damage (using YOUR reflex save if higher than the magic item's own reflex save). The creature in question would require a specific ability that somehow circumvents this general rule, so if it doesn't have an ability with specific rule > general rule, then your weapon shouldn't take any damage unless you fail the reflex save.
The Babau ability is a special rule that grants you the possibility to make a Reflex save to avoid the damage. There isn't a general rule that says that you get a Reflex save.
most similar abilities have that kind of text, but those that don't have it don't give the option to make a Reflex save.
Though the really weird part is, most of the time, the Babau's ability won't do anything. It specifically says the d8 damage has to beat the hardness of the weapon.
It's possible that your GM could say weapons are vulnerable to acid, of course, but, as usual, it's not called out.
So barring additional text, your weapon takes half of a d8 damage and...is probably just fine, even if you fail the save.
|
|
It is not called out because weapons can be made with a plethora of different materials. RL acids affect differently with metal and organic material, the same with different metals and alloys. And we have stone weapons, too. So it is left to the GM to decide if that particular weapon is vulnerable or not.
I guess, but would it really have used up so much precious text to give a GM an idea for the intended effect of the ability? "Typically, wood, leather, and stone weapons are vulnerable to this acid". These sorts of monsters would be hilarious in Society play, where every GM rules differently on how they work.
This Protective Slime ability is precisely what I'm talking about upthread; you should have a reflex save to avoid damage (using YOUR reflex save if higher than the magic item's own reflex save). The creature in question would require a specific ability that somehow circumvents this general rule, so if it doesn't have an ability with specific rule > general rule, then your weapon shouldn't take any damage unless you fail the reflex save.
The Babau ability is a special rule that grants you the possibility to make a Reflex save to avoid the damage. There isn't a general rule that says that you get a Reflex save.
most similar abilities have that kind of text, but those that don't have it don't give the option to make a Reflex save.
No, it doesn't "grant" me a save. Your magical attended items ALWAYS get saves as a general rule, and they use your reflex save if it's higher. The Babau's ability is simply following the general rule that you get a saving throw.
The creature in question would need a ability with a specific rule that trumps the general rule that you get to make a save.
Saving Throws
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
|
|
First, we aren't speaking only of magic items, instead, we are speaking of weapons in general. It can be shocking, but sometimes our characters use mundane weapons.
Second:
Damaging Magic Items
A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost. Magic items that take damage in excess of half their total hit points, but not more than their total hit points, gain the broken condition, and might not function properly
(see the Appendix).
Babau Slime and the other similar powers aren't spells. "Maybe" the specific rule about how magic items are damaged is more relevant than the more generic section.
Even without that, the ability has no listed effect for the weapon making or failing the save, so the weapon making or failing a save makes no difference. It doesn't say that making a save halves or negates the damage. Only that a magic item gets one.Third:
A creature that strikes a babau with a melee weapon must make a DC 18 Reflex save or the weapon takes 1d8 points of acid damage;
It isn't a save for the weapon, it is a save for the creature, or the weapon takes the damage.
The ability has no listed effect for the weapon making or failing the save, so the weapon making or failing a save doesn't have any effect.Fourth: you bolded "Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack". Well, first you tackled a piece of text called "Items Surviving after a Saving Throw:" from the magic section of the rules, p. 217, where it speaks of what happens when a character needs to save against a spell, to text taken from p. 173-175 "Smashing an Object" like it was a continuation of that text. It isn't. Either you are using sites that collate text or are doing that on purpose. In both instances your citation is wrong.
Even without that, the whole paragraph is about what happens if the character makes or fails a save. Again irrelevant when speaking of damaging the object directly.
In the instance of the Babau Slime (and similar effects), the character makes a save, so if it was a magical attack the rule would have been relevant, but the rule you cited consider that, it is even in the part you bolded "Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise". The Babau ability specifies otherwise "A creature that strikes a babau with a melee weapon must make a DC 18 Reflex save or the weapon takes 1d8 points of acid damage; ". It clearly specifies what happens if the character fails the save.
Anything in your hand, whether it's mundane or magical, is an attended object, so it follows attended object rules.
Saving Throws
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
The babau's ability is following this general rule.
The creature holding the weapon (the attended object) makes a saving throw Ref DC 18 or the weapon (the attended object) takes 1d8 acid damage.
Anything in your hand, whether it's mundane or magical, is an attended object, so it follows attended object rules.
Saving Throws
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).
Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks to determine order in which items are affected. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt. If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
The babau's ability is following this general rule.
The creature holding the weapon (the attended object) makes a saving throw Ref DC 18 or the weapon (the attended object) takes 1d8 acid damage.
This still does not imply a general rule of items get saving throws against any and all things that might damage them. It says if something that can effect an item allows a saving throw, then the item can make a saving throw (if it is attended and/or magical). If an ability/spell/effect does not allow a saving throw, then no saving throw is allowed for an item, attended or not. (Though attended objects cannot usually be targeted without some other rule allowing for it).
The babau slime calls out a saving throw is allowed.
Some creature abilities do not make a call for a saving throw, in those instances no saving throw is allowed.
eg, if magic missile were allowed to target objects (in addition to creatures), objects targeted by magic missile would not get a saving throw - because the magic missile spell itself does not allow for a saving throw.
This still does not imply a general rule of items get saving throws against any and all things that might damage them. It says if something that can effect an item allows a saving throw, then the item can make a saving throw (if it is attended and/or magical). If an ability/spell/effect does not allow a saving throw, then no saving throw is allowed for an item, attended or not.
Yes, it does imply a general rule of items get saving throws against any and all things that might damage them. It says it right effing there in the Damaging Objects section........................................
Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level.
Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate.
The babau slime calls out a saving throw is allowed.
Some creature abilities do not make a call for a saving throw, in those instances no saving throw is allowed.
eg, if magic missile were allowed to target objects (in addition to creatures), objects targeted by magic missile would not get a saving throw - because the magic missile spell itself does not allow for a saving throw.
Yeah, if a creature has an ability that specifically says it doesn't allow a saving throw, then obviously that's a specific rule that trumps the general rule, and no saving throw would be allowed.
An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
If its owner does not get a saving throw, does the magic item still get a saving throw?
Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect.
Do creatures get a saving throw against magic missile because the rules on saving throws tell us that creatures get saving throws against magical attacks?
We only care about when to make a saving throw rule if the affecting thing allows for a saving throw.
The saving throw rules for magic items isn't that magic items get to make a saving throw against anything and everything. The rule is that if something allows for a saving throw, then here is how it works for magic items. That is, apply the saving throw rules when a saving throw is called for. If no saving throw is allowed, then ignore the rules dictating how to do saving throws, because if its not allowed, it doesn't matter what those rules are.
If items always get a saving throw against being damaged, what type of saving throw, and at what DC is the saving throw for an item to survive being dropped into a volcano?
Weapons are Attended Objects, so they automatically follow this rule: "Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack." So if a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability specifically targets an object, such as a weapon, it follows the Attended Object rules in the Breaking Objects section.
Since both Diego and bbangerter seem to be confused, Ima make you a cheat sheet for how this works:
Unattended Non-Magical Object: No Save at all
Attended Non-Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use the Wielder's Save.
Unattended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use its own save. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
Attended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but it uses its own save or the wielder's save, whichever is higher. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
Weapons are Attended Objects, so they automatically follow this rule: "Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack." So if a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability specifically targets an object, such as a weapon, it follows the Attended Object rules in the Breaking Objects section.
Since both Diego and bbangerter seem to be confused, Ima make you a cheat sheet for how this works:
Unattended Non-Magical Object: No Save at all
Attended Non-Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use the Wielder's Save.
Unattended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use its own save. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
Attended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but it uses its own save or the wielder's save, whichever is higher. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
That's all very clear. I'm not confused about that in the least. There is one caveat, the thing affecting the object must allow for a saving throw in the first place. That's all I'm pointing out.
That's all very clear. I'm not confused about that in the least. There is one caveat, the thing affecting the object must allow for a saving throw in the first place. That's all I'm pointing out.Weapons are Attended Objects, so they automatically follow this rule: "Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack." So if a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability specifically targets an object, such as a weapon, it follows the Attended Object rules in the Breaking Objects section.
Since both Diego and bbangerter seem to be confused, Ima make you a cheat sheet for how this works:
Unattended Non-Magical Object: No Save at all
Attended Non-Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use the Wielder's Save.
Unattended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use its own save. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
Attended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but it uses its own save or the wielder's save, whichever is higher. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
No, the general rule says attended objects get a saving throw no matter what, in every possible scenario. The only exception would be a specific rule in an ability that specifically says that you DONT get a save.
So if I attack an unattended rope of climbing with my sword, and my attack is successful, then the rope still gets a saving throw against the damage inflicted on it? What type of saving throw is it (fort, ref, will)? What is the DC? Does it take half damage or no damage on the successful save?
Does any of that change if I use an acid splash cantrip instead?
|
|
The item gets to roll a save. The ability doesn't specify anything that happens if the item successfully makes the save. If the item fails the save it gets full damage, if the item makes the save it still gets full damage, as no rule says that something different happens.
Can you find a rule that says that "an item making a save negates all damage"?
A save that does nothing is irrelevant.
Saving Throws
Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class and level (see Chapter 3), and an associated ability score. Your saving throw modifier is:
Base save bonus + ability modifier
Saving Throw Types: The three different kinds of saving throws are Fortitude, Reflex, and Will:
Fortitude: These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health. Apply your Constitution modifier to your Fortitude saving throws.
Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.
Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom modifier to your Will saving throws.
Saving Throw Difficulty Class: The DC for a save is determined by the attack itself.
Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw on page 217). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
None: No saving throw is allowed.
Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the spell’s effect.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item’s caster level.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
Saving Throw Difficulty Class: A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, or ranger). A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive
text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table 9–2: Items Affected by Magical Attacks.
Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.
If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
You see anything that says that the item making the save does something if the effect hasn't a line that says that the result changes if the person/item saves?
^---- This.
^---- This.You are joking, or really you never read what we wrote? It is exactly what we said.
That's exactly what I'm saying too. Maybe you're not reading what I'm writing either, we're all just arguing the same thing and simply having a 'lost-in-translation' moment.
I'm going to clarify what I'm saying.
For spell, SLA, or supernatural abilities that can target objects:
Unattended Non-Magical Object: Never gets a Save at all, even if the spell, SLA, or Su ability specifically calls out that it allows a save.
Attended Non-Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use the Wielder's Save.
Unattended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but MUST use its own save. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
Attended Magical Object: Gets a Save every time, but it uses its own save or the wielder's save, whichever is higher. A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down).
The only time that a save would not be allowed for a grasped weapon (an Attended Object) would be if a specific ability specifically calls out No Save. In all other cases, the grasped weapon would receive a save per the Attended Object general rules.
The babau’s protective slime ability is written with obedience to, and in compliance with, the attended object general rules.
Since the OP’s Magical weapon did not get a save to avoid damage, either that ability was indeed a no save ability, or, the GM simply forgot to implement these rules. We would need to know the exact creature, or have the exact verbiage of the ability, in order to determine whether the weapon was supposed to receive a save or not.
This is an important distinction to make:
The opportunity for an attended object to have a save is not granted by the spell, SLA, or Su ability itself, but rather the opportunity to save is granted by the Attended Object general rules. Instead, it is the spell, SLA, or Su ability itself that REMOVES the opportunity for the Attended Object to make a Save, because Attended Objects always receive saves, and if the spell, SLA, or Su ability is Save: No, then this is a specific rule from that spell, SLA, or Su ability that overrides the general rule that Attended Objects always receive saves.
Just so we're clear- if an ability does not say it has a saving throw, is that a "No Save" ability?
That's what I assumed, but I wanted to make sure I understood what Ryze is saying. The Caryatid Column's ability then, is an ability that doesn't allow a saving throw.
Shatter Weapons (Ex): Whenever a character strikes a caryatid column with a weapon (magical or nonmagical), the weapon takes 3d6 points of damage. Apply the weapon’s hardness normally. Weapons that take any amount of damage in excess of their hardness gain the broken condition.
I did finally convince my GM to tell me what the monster that started this thread was- as I suspected, it was a 3rd party creature, from Rite Publishing's Pathways Bestiary, which, to my consternation, specifically calls out that it doesn't ignore hardness, which could have staved off an argument if he'd bothered to read the whole text block, lol.
Pyroclastic Creature's Lava Burn (Ex): " If a pyroclastic creature is hit with a manufactured weapon, the weapon takes fire damage as though hit by the pyroclastic creature’s lava burn ability and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire. Weapons that can deal additional cold or fire damage, such as a flaming or icy burst weapons, are immune to this effect. This effect does not avoid or ignore hardness."
Just so we're clear- if an ability does not say it has a saving throw, is that a "No Save" ability?
Yes. Because if the default were "a save is allowed", then we still have unanswered questions regarding the save type and the DC to beat.