Hello,
is it possible to use illusion to affect the opponents when they walked on a surface, the ground is breaking and so they are falling ?
Thanks for your future answer.
Yes, with the appropriate illusion spells you can cover a pit or bit of unstable terrain in the hopes of causing someone to fall in.
Note though that most such spells don't have a tactile element though. Just because can hide the cracks in the ice from sight, for example, doesn't mean that you can cloak the sound of cracking ice or the sensation of the ice shifting beneath you.
Ultimately, the GM will be the arbiter in how this would play out, and I would recommend discussing the possibility with them prior to implementation.
Note that RD is talking about a hidden real pit, not an illusory one. An illusion of the ground breaking could prompt the enemy to jump, maybe even spend their Reaction, but that'd be a bonus from the GM, not the rules. The opponents wouldn't actually feel any sense of falling; if they believed the floor broke away, they'd end up surprised they didn't fall.
PF2 illusions only do what they say they do (unless the GM sees fit to reward trickiness that is). And they tend to fall in specific categories (i.e. object, creature, etc.) which have specific effects. I'm not sure any of the terrain illusions have a direct effect on opponents, or even can play out an event like the ground falling out from beneath them.
That could make for an interesting spell though! False Fall.
With the potential to make targets spend Reactions Grabbing an Edge, maybe even go prone or even Stun them if the spell's high enough level.
Lowest level version might target one, while Heightened might cover 10' x 10', then larger as the spell ramps up.
That's a cool notion indeed!
Note though that if you create an illusion of the floor giving way immediately in front of a walking (or running) individual, you could cause them to start, lose balance, and fall over, even though there is no actual hole. I know this from experience as wily VR game designers have pulled that trick on me in real life. It's amazing what simple visual/aural stimuli alone can do to your sense of equilibrium! There's no reason why magic couldn't pull a similar trick to mess with someone's sense of equilibrium. It would be a short, harmless fall to the ground though (no damage and prone, at best). As always, the GM is the final arbiter on how corner cases in the rules will function in their games.
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An illusion of unstable ground, with part of it falling away, might also be ruled as difficult terrain for those that don't disbelieve, though requiring a high enough level illusion to include tactile feedback would make sense.
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That could make for an interesting spell though! False Fall.
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An illusion of unstable ground, with part of it falling away, might also be ruled as difficult terrain for those that don't disbelieve, though requiring a high enough level illusion to include tactile feedback would make sense.
This is what Warped Terrain is for.
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An illusion of unstable ground, with part of it falling away, might also be ruled as difficult terrain for those that don't disbelieve, though requiring a high enough level illusion to include tactile feedback would make sense.
Or for those not playing Illusionist Wizard, reflavor Oneric Mire.
That could make for an interesting spell though! False Fall.Phantasmal Calamity
Yes, that resembles a Heightened version of what I was contemplating, and with damage too. So maybe Paizo's considered a lesser version already, and bypassed it.
And it reminds me of how much meatier PF2 illusion spell selection is, even if the versatility (& associated shenanigans) has been trimmed from the basic ones.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, there are spells that do that general sort of thing. That is not, in any way, incompatible with some version of it being a possibly appropriate ruling on some types of illusions.
While the original question about actually inflicting falling damage does not work, that does not mean that illusions aren't flexible, or that situational rulings on their effects are inappropriate.
PF2 illusions only do what they say they do (unless the GM sees fit to reward trickiness that is). And they tend to fall in specific categories (i.e. object, creature, etc.) which have specific effects. I'm not sure any of the terrain illusions have a direct effect on opponents, or even can play out an event like the ground falling out from beneath them.
I'm not sure that is the best way to express that. Yes the illusion spells have clear defined limits. GMs should be encouraging player inventiveness and clever use of illusions while keeping limitations of each spell in mind. I would get very upset with a GM who insisted with very narrow interpretations.
For this case. You can simulate a bad floor with
Ilussory Object if cast at level 2 a 20ft burst of floor could creak and wobble. It could have two reasonable effects, people could notice it ( the bad flooring) and just choose not to go onto it. In which case its has its desired effect with no saving throw. If they examined it (percception check for example) or step on it deliberately or accidentally, then they get a disbelieve attempt.
Its not actually difficult terrain. So they aren't reduced in movement unless they choose to go slow. But like most reasonble illusions it will likely waste actions and time, while they figure out what it is.
Warped Terrain the illusionist focus spell, is the right way to do this as other people have said. If you have access to it. It is one of the better Wizard Focus spells - its just that is not a high bar. In this case if they walk into it they do suffer the difficult terrain, at least until after they make a successful save.
Another big difference, I think, is that Warped Terrain and Oneiric Mire just work, no matter where you cast them. With Illusory Objects, people are more likely to suspect something is up, and act accordingly, if you cast them in an area where they already know that floor is fine. They might not immediately guess illusion (and if they always guess illusion when it is one, and never guess illusion when it isn't, the GM has messed up), but it isn't crazy if they do take an action to Seek (and attempt to Disbelieve) when things would reasonably raise their suspicion.
The difference between "this works" and "this might work if I'm clever about how, where and when I do it" is fairly appropriate for the difference between "Spell that does the thing" and "Trying to make clever use of a general purpose spell".
Let's remember we were talking about a falling floor that seems to collapse underneath the opponents, not a dubious floor that only threatens to. I agree a dubious floor would be an easy illusion to generate w/ terrain illusions. Not as sure about normal floors being an object though for Illusory Object, certainly not underground nor outside IMO.
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Illusions can not cause physical effects unless the spell says so. Even Phantasmal Calamity only does Mental damage when the target thinks they're being crushed by a boulder or something.
If the floor crumbled beneath them, they would likely try to jump away or Grab an Edge or something, but they wouldn't take any falling damage at all. In fact, they would just be standing in mid air after the floor is gone, and if they fail the new save, be very confused.
If you make an illusion of water and they can't hold their breath any longer, they won't start drowning. They get a new save, and upon failing would either pass out or be confused as to why they can breathe water.
If you make an illusion of a tree falling on someone, they won't take damage if they can't get out of the way. This would lead again to a new save, and confusion if they failed it.
Also note, you can fail to disbelieve an illusion and still know it's an illusion. In this case you would just not be able to see through it like when you disbelieve it.
Illusions are meant to trick people into thinking something is there when it isn't which gives you the advantage in combat. Not to cause direct damage to someone like an Evocation spell would.
Yes, with the appropriate illusion spells you can cover a pit or bit of unstable terrain in the hopes of causing someone to fall in.
Note though that most such spells don't have a tactile element though. Just because can hide the cracks in the ice from sight, for example, doesn't mean that you can cloak the sound of cracking ice or the sensation of the ice shifting beneath you.
Ultimately, the GM will be the arbiter in how this would play out, and I would recommend discussing the possibility with them prior to implementation.
Lots of illusions have tactile elements, actually. They usually specify it though,and it is limited to making creatures think they are touching something. A creature prob won't try to charge through a wall, but they won't be falling.
The drowning example is interesting. You can't actually drown someone, but the sensation of being submerged might be doable with the limited tactile feedback. So making them think they will drown and waste actions swimming seems possible.
Also note, you can fail to disbelieve an illusion and still know it's an illusion.
Please explain.
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Also note, you can fail to disbelieve an illusion and still know it's an illusion.Please explain.
Your ally disbelieves (or is the one who cast it in the first place). You still need a saving throw to disbelieve. You fail. You now know that it is an illusion, but have not been able to disbelieve it.
Your ally disbelieves (or is the one who cast it in the first place). You still need a saving throw to disbelieve. You fail. You now know that it is an illusion, but have not been able to disbelieve it.Also note, you can fail to disbelieve an illusion and still know it's an illusion.Please explain.
"Know" is not the right term.
Probably better to express it as - the character has been told by someone that it is an illusion, but they just can't see past it to reality.
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Also note, you can fail to disbelieve an illusion and still know it's an illusion.Please explain.
If the illusion is visual, and a creature interacts with the illusion in a way that would prove it is not what it seems, the creature might know that an illusion is present, but it still can’t ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it. For instance, if a character is pushed through the illusion of a door, they will know that the door is an illusion, but they still can’t see through it. Disbelieving an illusion makes it and those things it blocks seem hazy and indistinct, so even in the case where a visual illusion is disbelieved, it may, at the GM’s discretion, block vision enough to make those on the other side concealed.
Another example: Enemy wizard creates an Illusory Wall of Stone. The party Wizard immediately knows they cast Illusory Object and warns the party, giving everyone a free perception check to disbelieve. Everyone except the Fighter passes, and can see through the wall. In the following turn, everyone charges straight through the wall to continue the fight, but the Fighter still just sees a wall, even after watching their whole team run right through it, and the Wizard even telling them it's fake. Mustering all their courage, they charge into the wall and brace for impact, Platform 9 3/4 style, but passes right through into the fray with their allies.
You can 100% know something is an illusion but fail the save against it. It would only block line of site in that case. I like to think of it as a texture in a video game without collision. You can walk right through it, but can't see anything on the other side.
Um, I just don't apply the illusion effects against allies because they know it's an illusion.
Is that wrong?
I'm not seeing any rule indicating that it is.
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Um, I just don't apply the illusion effects against allies because they know it's an illusion.
Is that wrong?
I'm not seeing any rule indicating that it is.
Yes. Nothing indicates allies are immune to illusions anymore than fireball. And rules example with the door makes it pretty clear knowing something is an illusion doesn't bypass it without disbelieving it as well Also, allies wouldn't necessarily know it unless the caster is announcing it, which undermines the purpose of illusions. (Well, technically you could tell your allies what spells you have prepared and they might have a pretty good guess, but the whole point of illusions is to keep people guessing.)
Um, I just don't apply the illusion effects against allies because they know it's an illusion.
Is that wrong?
I'm not seeing any rule indicating that it is.
It is incorrect, yes. As cited above, knowing intellectually that it's an illusion and successfully disbelieving are slightly different, though having advance knowledge to expect the illusion would be a pretty appropriate reason for a circumstance bonus to disbelieve.
Seems an over-use of the nerf-hammer. Why would anyone ever use illusions then? You can't discreetly cast them and now they always adversely affect you and/or your allies even when everyone is in the know and has seen you do it a hundred times before?
Yeah, no, not in my games. Unless an ally doesn't have a reason to expect an illusion to be cast from the party illusionist, I'm going to assume everyone in the party is in the know and is largely unaffected by it.
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Seems an over-use of the nerf-hammer. Why would anyone ever use illusions then? You can't discreetly cast them and now they always adversely affect you and/or your allies even when everyone is in the know and has seen you do it a hundred times before?
Yeah, no, not in my games. Unless an ally doesn't have a reason to expect an illusion to be cast from the party illusionist, I'm going to assume everyone in the party is in the know and is largely unaffected by it.
Because you don't automatically know which spell was cast, so if someone casts a spell and a wall of stone appears it's just as likely a Wall of Stone as an illusion. Even if you wanted to try to identify it, that's an action wasted on your turn to Recall Knowledge. And who's to say there isn't a Conjure Bridge spell? You're a fighter not a wizard! You can just tell your party "Don't trust the stuff I conjure out of thin air ;)" and be done with it.
Seems an over-use of the nerf-hammer. Why would anyone ever use illusions then? You can't discreetly cast them and now they always adversely affect you and/or your allies even when everyone is in the know and has seen you do it a hundred times before?
Yeah, no, not in my games. Unless an ally doesn't have a reason to expect an illusion to be cast from the party illusionist, I'm going to assume everyone in the party is in the know and is largely unaffected by it.
Only if you are bad at using them. Casters can cast discreetly with the right feats, and there are plenty of ways to use illusions without hampering allies. They are great ways of locking down enemies. You could make an illusion people could still see and attack through, like the bars of a cage. You can also use them to cut a battle field in half, like a wall of stone. If you place an illusion in out of an enemies reach, they will need one action to move up to it and at least one more go examine it. That's likely still true even if they saw an Ally run through it. Getting yourself to plow head first through what your brain is telling you is very a brick wall isn't something that should be easy to do what with survival instincts.
My party got ambushed by an APL+2 or 3 fey, and I opened up the encounter by casting an illusory cage with sharp jagged bars-- bars I bluffed the fey into thinking were cold iron. The fey wound up just pacing the cage without testing it while we stole the treasure we came for.
Or try this: 2nd level illusory object a giant cube of water around your enemy. It will feel like actual water, so they will probably just start using inefficient swim actions to escape. They will think they need to hold their breath, so you just shut down their spell casting.
Illusions are better than ever this edition, even without making house rules. You just need to be creative with them, and most illusions are open ended enough to let you get hella creative.
and if they always guess illusion when it is one, and never guess illusion when it isn't, the GM has messed up
Yeah, that is clearly metagaming. Could try mixing it up with Shifting Sand, but that requires knowing another spell (and not casting Occult tradition). Probably best to handle it outside of game rather than trying to make your character out-guess the GM.
Seems an over-use of the nerf-hammer. Why would anyone ever use illusions then? You can't discreetly cast them and now they always adversely affect you and/or your allies even when everyone is in the know and has seen you do it a hundred times before?
Yeah, no, not in my games. Unless an ally doesn't have a reason to expect an illusion to be cast from the party illusionist, I'm going to assume everyone in the party is in the know and is largely unaffected by it.
Not every illusion is something that will adversely affect you, in the case that you know it's an illusion but haven't disbelieved. Illusions can be a lot of different things, intended to affect behavior in different ways.
Seems an over-use of the nerf-hammer. Why would anyone ever use illusions then? You can't discreetly cast them and now they always adversely affect you and/or your allies even when everyone is in the know and has seen you do it a hundred times before?
Yeah, no, not in my games. Unless an ally doesn't have a reason to expect an illusion to be cast from the party illusionist, I'm going to assume everyone in the party is in the know and is largely unaffected by it.
Just hand out large circumstance bonuses - as is appropriate as the GM.
Allow a check as a free action. Allow them to take additional perception checks/saving throws as actions until they pass. Perhaps if the caster takes an action to point out the problems in the illusion to them.The thing is illusion spells all have certain rules built into them as illusions but the details are supposed to vary for each spell. The GM needs to get involved and make decisions about how to adjudicate illusions. But I don't think it is unreasonable for party members to have been trained to see through particular illusions by the party wizard, thus making such checks more or less automatic.