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Is there a difference between Terrain Stalker and Feather Step in this situation?
- Character X used Avoid Notice during exploration.
- He is currently at the start of his turn during combat and his current status is unnoticed [Undetected].
- He is protected by natural cover while he is in difficult Natural terrain.
In this situation would feather step be more useful than terrain stalker to move around while remaining unnoticed and without needing a stealth check because it is not restricted to just 1 terrain type per feat?
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Feather Step doesn't let you move around without needing a stealth check. If the natural cover is providing total cover, then vision won't be able to detect them using vision, but remember that hearing and other senses exist too. And only total cover would block vision. Anything less than total cover would still allow line of sight.
If a character has both feats:
* Regular Sneak action would let them move half their speed. They would remain unnoticed/undetected if they succeed at their stealth check.
* Feather Step wouldn't do much at all. They could move 5 feet using a Step action - but that isn't the Sneak action. Step doesn't allow a stealth check to stay hidden. So they would become undetected or hidden depending on which senses the enemy has line of sight to you with. A precise sense like vision would cause hidden or higher, an imprecise sense like hearing would cause undetected.
* Terrain Stalker would let them use the Sneak action and automatically succeed, but they could only move 5 feet at a time.
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I believe the OP is referring to an oddity in the Stealth rules: Secret
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You gain the circumstance bonus from cover or greater cover to your check.
Success If the creature could see you, you’re now hidden from it instead of observed. If you were hidden from or undetected by the creature, you retain that condition.
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, . If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.
If a creature uses Seek to make you observed by it, you must successfully Hide to become hidden from it again.
To the best of my knowledge, this is the only reference to the Step action not making you observed, so I'm guessing that this is not actually intended (might have been part of an older rule set that got missed).
If you can Step without breaking your Stealth (provided you maintain the cover/concealment requirement as well), then Terrain Stalker is pretty much completely useless as long as you can still Step (which Feather Step allows) since Step does not technically require a Stealth check...
I believe the OP is referring to an oddity in the Stealth rules
To the best of my knowledge, this is the only reference to the Step action not making you observed, so I'm guessing that this is not actually intended (might have been part of an older rule set that got missed).
If you can Step without breaking your Stealth (provided you maintain the cover/concealment requirement as well), then Terrain Stalker is pretty much completely useless as long as you can still Step (which Feather Step allows) since Step does not technically require a Stealth check...
Yeah. That is odd. Sneak actually has the same list. Doesn't break hidden condition for Step action.
Which seems really broken. Step shouldn't be a short range auto-success version of Sneak. Especially without the clause that Sneak has that says
You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Consider a 10 foot doorway with a guard watching it. A character could either Sneak the 15 feet needed to cross the distance without being seen - and have to succeed at the stealth check. Or munchkin it and use three Step actions to go 15 feet and not have to make any rolls, and not become observed automatically after the first 5 foot Step.
That sounds like it needs fixed. Or ignored.
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I believe the OP is referring to an oddity in the Stealth rules
To the best of my knowledge, this is the only reference to the Step action not making you observed, so I'm guessing that this is not actually intended (might have been part of an older rule set that got missed).
If you can Step without breaking your Stealth (provided you maintain the cover/concealment requirement as well), then Terrain Stalker is pretty much completely useless as long as you can still Step (which Feather Step allows) since Step does not technically require a Stealth check...
Yeah. That is odd. Sneak actually has the same list. Doesn't break hidden condition for Step action.
Which seems really broken. Step shouldn't be a short range auto-success version of Sneak. Especially without the clause that Sneak has that says
You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.Consider a 10 foot doorway with a guard watching it. A character could either Sneak the 15 feet needed to cross the distance without being seen - and have to succeed at the stealth check. Or munchkin it and use three Step actions to go 15 feet and not have to make any rolls, and not become observed automatically after the first 5 foot Step.
That sounds like it needs fixed. Or ignored.
Well, you would need to keep cover/concealment 100% of the time while stepping, while actually sneaking allows you to leave cover/concealment briefly as you move (granted, this is a moot point if you can only sneak 10ft at a time like most starting characters, since both your starting and ending squares need cover/concealment).
I lean toward 'ignoring' this option: It just feels like something left in the skills section by accident.
Well, you would need to keep cover/concealment 100% of the time while stepping, while actually sneaking allows you to leave cover/concealment briefly as you move
That is true. So it would need to be in an area of dim light against an enemy that doesn't have low light vision. Or cast Obscuring Mist first - though the casting of the spell may give away your existence at the least.
granted, this is a moot point if you can only sneak 10ft at a time like most starting characters, since both your starting and ending squares need cover/concealment.
Yes, at low level a 10 foot Step distance is much harder to get than a 30+ foot movement speed. I can't think of anything other than Tiger Stance that will increase Step distance at level 1.
At level 9 I am also seeing Elf Step that will let you take two Step actions for one action. That would let you Step 40 feet in one turn.
Anyway, enough munchkinry from me. In general, being able to sneak without making stealth checks just feels off.