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There are three options:
A) allow climb always to work
B) you specify every single situation where it works with DC
C) you specify every single monster
D) you leave it to the GM
Paizo in 2e deliberately moved a lot decisions to D)
I’m surprised to find this in 1e: — A perfectly smooth, flat vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed.
So spiders never were able to climb a smooth ceiling. Only the slippers of spider climb do allow ceilings as well. And these got changed from low level to 7th level.
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Hi! So, I think there's some weird implications in Climb Speed rules that kind of cripple certain abilities of iconic creatures.
As per RAW, Climbing Speed in Second Edition allows creatures to automatically succeed on all the "Climb" checks while climbing up and down "inclines and vertical surfaces". It also replaces the distance you can move on success from listed in the "Climb" action entry to your Climb Speed. Yet, it specifies that "You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings". So, climbing ceilings still requires a "Climb" check. But do not worry — "Your climb Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Climb".
I assume that's how it works both for PCs and Monsters. The PC part I understand — this edition seems to be very restrictive with giving PCs different types of movement and that seems to be in line with other design choices of the sort. But the Monster part creates an interesting issue — what about spiders (or any other creatures of "climbing kind" for that matter)?
"What about them?" indeed. Each Spider-kin monster that we have in this game at the moment possesses Climb Speed like any respectable member of the arachnid family. So, that means that they can climb up and down walls. BUT, ceilings are still an uncharted territory that forces those poor things to make "Climb" like any other non-arachnid peasant. It's already getting weird, as Spiders are renowned for their incredible climbing capabilities both in the real world and in the worlds of fantasy, but it only gets weirder from here.
If this was a strict and intended mechanic — to make traversing ceilings hard even for the creatures with Climb Speed — it would be understandable if somewhat weird design choice. But there are TWO (at least) exceptions: "Black Pudding" (Bestiary 1, pg.255) and "Wizard Sponge" (Bestiary 3, pg.294).
Those two creatures that have a unique creature ability...
The rules you quoted say: "You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings"
Might. So the GM can choose that spiders don't have to do it (I personally don't ask for a check for a spider).
Monsters are complex and Paizo can hardly describe everything about them in the rules. There have been debates here about Innate spells on monsters without mouth, bleeding on undeads and so on. There is a whole bunch of GM fiat on monsters. I don't think any player would scream if a spider walks on a ceiling without a check, this is what they do.
Yep. A GM could decide to make a spider roll a check, or any other creatuee. Or rhey could not I think a decent rule of thumb is that if a creature is lurking in a particular place, it is probably one it can comfortably move in. And with spiders they can have webs to climb as well to bypass the ceiling debate.
I assume that's how it works both for PCs and Monsters.
That's not a reliable assumption to make.
And in fact, that is my rule of thumb for this case. If the climb speed is due to a class feat, ancestry feat based on training (like Catfolk Climbing Claws), equipment, or spell the default is that you can only climb climbable things with the climb speed. No walking across the ceiling or other such shenanigans. For monsters or ancestry feats based on physiology (like Anadi Strand Strider) then they can climb more of the unclimbable things. Though still not all of them.
But it is something that has to be decided on at game time. Not something that can be explicitly specified into the rules.
I realise the complexity of Pathfinder's rule set and the desire to leave certain elements to the DM's fiat, but the rules on different Speeds in this edition are surprisingly thorough and well thought-out, which makes it slightly puzzling to see this little conundrum when looking at Climbing speed specifically.
I wouldn't even write this post if not for those two examples where designers have made a decision to specify their ability to traverse ceilings. So, by the method of exclusion, we can (kind of) deduce that others lack this skill.
Usually in such cases Paizo links to a general creature ability (like Grab or Rend) in the monsters' stat-block. Same could have been easily done here, by writing out a new general monster ability alike to "Suction" that would allow creatures to climb ceilings. But, as per now, "Suction" is instead a unique ability given only to those two specific monsters. While obviously not very important, it's still rather odd, at least in my eyes)
When you start defining such precise things, you quickly realize that you have to define more and more things until you write a complete zoology book.
There's no real need to explain to people that spiders walk on ceilings. I hardly think a player will intervene to explain you it's illogical.The book is, by definition, incomplete. The rules are just there to explain the cases that the GM can't make up on their own.
PF1 had a ton of universal monster abilities like this. You either needed to bloat the stat block with extra text, or you had to look up what a given ability meant because it was printed somewhere else.
I think there are a lot less abilities like that in PF2, and generally it makes monsters much easier to run and a lot more fun in play. If something feels missing, you can add it, like spiders on the ceiling.
You could also justify them NOT being able to cling to the ceiling. Most bestiary bugs are so much bigger than real world analogues, and it would be a lot harder for a bug that size to stick to a ceiling. You don't need to make too many concessions for the square cube law, but that's not a huge one.