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Vargock wrote:

And for some reason, I feel like this isn't the case of "Can't keep", but "Won't keep" — especially considering how "controversial" the existence of drow is in the modern ever-changing political landscape.

The good news is you can direct this assumption at the words of the Creative Director himself just earlier this evening in this selfsame thread.

That clears things up, thank you. If we are to take corporate's reasoning at face value, the fact that the removal was not caused by self-censorship is a somewhat calming thought — despite the fact that the result is very much the same.

Considering that Pathfinder's drow have always been far more... "fleshed out" than their current D&D version, I will miss them dearly. The potential was there, as that little bit of drow in Abomination Vaults was probably the most interesting bit of the entire book.

Just got the news — Must say, kind of hate it with burning passion. Seems like every good piece of news about Remaster is accompanied by something like... this. And for some reason, I feel like this isn't the case of "Can't keep", but "Won't keep" — especially considering how "controversial" the existence of drow is in the modern ever-changing political landscape.

I can only hope that Remaster at least succeeds in fixing some of the existent mechanical grudges of PF2e, otherwise it's gonna feel like getting hit with the stick, but with no carrot in sight.

The rules you quoted say: "You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings"

Might. So the GM can choose that spiders don't have to do it (I personally don't ask for a check for a spider).

Monsters are complex and Paizo can hardly describe everything about them in the rules. There have been debates here about Innate spells on monsters without mouth, bleeding on undeads and so on. There is a whole bunch of GM fiat on monsters. I don't think any player would scream if a spider walks on a ceiling without a check, this is what they do.

I realise the complexity of Pathfinder's rule set and the desire to leave certain elements to the DM's fiat, but the rules on different Speeds in this edition are surprisingly thorough and well thought-out, which makes it slightly puzzling to see this little conundrum when looking at Climbing speed specifically.

I wouldn't even write this post if not for those two examples where designers have made a decision to specify their ability to traverse ceilings. So, by the method of exclusion, we can (kind of) deduce that others lack this skill.

Usually in such cases Paizo links to a general creature ability (like Grab or Rend) in the monsters' stat-block. Same could have been easily done here, by writing out a new general monster ability alike to "Suction" that would allow creatures to climb ceilings. But, as per now, "Suction" is instead a unique ability given only to those two specific monsters. While obviously not very important, it's still rather odd, at least in my eyes)

Hi! So, I think there's some weird implications in Climb Speed rules that kind of cripple certain abilities of iconic creatures.

As per RAW, Climbing Speed in Second Edition allows creatures to automatically succeed on all the "Climb" checks while climbing up and down "inclines and vertical surfaces". It also replaces the distance you can move on success from listed in the "Climb" action entry to your Climb Speed. Yet, it specifies that "You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings". So, climbing ceilings still requires a "Climb" check. But do not worry — "Your climb Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Climb".

I assume that's how it works both for PCs and Monsters. The PC part I understand — this edition seems to be very restrictive with giving PCs different types of movement and that seems to be in line with other design choices of the sort. But the Monster part creates an interesting issue — what about spiders (or any other creatures of "climbing kind" for that matter)?

"What about them?" indeed. Each Spider-kin monster that we have in this game at the moment possesses Climb Speed like any respectable member of the arachnid family. So, that means that they can climb up and down walls. BUT, ceilings are still an uncharted territory that forces those poor things to make "Climb" like any other non-arachnid peasant. It's already getting weird, as Spiders are renowned for their incredible climbing capabilities both in the real world and in the worlds of fantasy, but it only gets weirder from here.

If this was a strict and intended mechanic — to make traversing ceilings hard even for the creatures with Climb Speed — it would be understandable if somewhat weird design choice. But there are TWO (at least) exceptions: "Black Pudding" (Bestiary 1, pg.255) and "Wizard Sponge" (Bestiary 3, pg.294).
Those two creatures that have a unique creature ability called "Suction" that allows them, and I quote: "climb on ceilings and other inverted surfaces". For "Black Pudding", there is also a note that says "Though such surfaces are difficult terrain for it".

Due to the ambiguous writing of this ability, I can only assume that it expands the limits of Climb Speed, allowing those creatures to traverse designated surfaces without making Climb checks.

If my interpretation is correct, then my question is why only those two creatures among dozens (if not hundreds) of other creatures have this unique ability to Climb ceilings with ease? Wouldn't Spiders, the literal embodiment of wall-climbers, benefit from it?

P.S. Hope this little rant didn't sound too pushy — I'm just really curious if this was an intended design choice or just the result of a complex rule set acting weird when applied to different creatures.