I suppose the title says it all.
With the better involvement of vehicles, I am setting up a chase scene where the goal is to catch an escaping operative. So I am wondering could the operative use trick attack to gain extra damage vs a vehicle?
It also cropped up if Trick attack could deal extra damage to a wall or a plant pot?
No, it’s not a creature you can predict/trick to create a vulnerability, and no CR to target.
So on a side note, is there actually anything that can't be the target of a trick attack? A creature with a special immunity or something?
So on a side note, is there actually anything that can't be the target of a trick attack? A creature with a special immunity or something?
There are a few monsters that have a way to negate a trick attack sometimes in the sfs modules. I get the sense that the writers didn't like operatives...
But the system has by and large moved away from this, and for good reason. In pathfinider/3.x sneak attack shut off in a stiff breeze and half the monster manual was immune.
Fair enough, just thought it would be a nice surprise for my tables operative if a beastie was suddenly immune to Trick attack. Can you trick attack a mech?
Fair enough, just thought it would be a nice surprise for my tables operative if a beastie was suddenly immune to Trick attack. Can you trick attack a mech?
Yes. Trick attack targets a foe , and a mech is a person in a very fancy suit of armor. A mech with no pilot would just be a construct, which can also be trick attacked.
"Your class abilities don't work" is rarely a NICE surprise. Your character is now useless for this combat. No save. ha ha. Nothing you can do about it. It's not like the operative has a slew of options to use so they shouldn't just be spamming the same ability... in combat they have that one ability from the class and thats pretty much it.
Not much worse then most Golems when your a spell caster in previous Pathfinder. Its one ability. I am not looking to make every bad guy immune, more along the line when it just so happen to meet something immune to your damage type or a melee build against something with flying.
I wouldn't say a drop in your damage output makes you useless. Like a weapon that doesn't match the top damage available isn't useless. Since Operatives have access to sniper rifles, they still have access to weapons with damage on par with other characters.
The 'nice surprise' is more a turn of phrase.
Not much worse then most Golems when your a spell caster in previous Pathfinder.
It IS much worse.
Casters have options to deal with magic immune critters.
Spells that don't allow spell resistance (grease, the pit spells)
Spells that indirectly affect the Golem (The golem isn't immune to the extra damage from enlarge person on the fighter)
That one weird obscure spell that usually affected the golem anyway.
A golem reduces the amount of options a spellcaster has, it doesn't turn off spellcasting.
It's more like a null magic zone than a golem.
Its one ability. I am not looking to make every bad guy immune, more along the line when it just so happen to meet something immune to your damage type or a melee build against something with flying.
Those are things you should expect to run into and carry contingencies for. If you are melee, your mobility is right behind your weapon in importance if not in front of it. Potions of fly if nothing else will do or you can't count on your casters to get you airborne. You should also have a ranged back up weapon.
As a fighter you should have a golf bag full of weapons to use different damage types or some way of using your signature weapon to deal different types of damage.
Except for swarms, if your fighter can't damage something then they're under prepared.
So what is the equivalent work around for a creature that operatives are supposed to use? Maybe once tripple attack comes online...
I wouldn't say a drop in your damage output makes you useless. Like a weapon that doesn't match the top damage available isn't useless. Since Operatives have access to sniper rifles, they still have access to weapons with damage on par with other characters.
It's more than a drop, you're cutting their damage by 90% athigher levels, not a d6. Backup gear in starfinder is much less effective than in pathfinder because so much more depends on the weapon than the character.
The creatures that can do this sort of thing (which were not well received by players) didn't have flat out immunity. They had a roll to negate the trick attack ( they had to beat the operatives trick attack score) or could only negate one trick or crit per round.
A drop in damage doesn't make someone useless is what I am trying to say. Yes it may suck your damage drops, like your example of a melee fighter with a back up range weapon. If every other class needs to have a back up on the chance something is awkward, why should the operative be immune to it?
8d6+10d8+10. 28 to 138 with about 66 average.
12d6+20 32 to 92 with about 64 average damage, with the option to multi fire.
At higher levels, how is that loosing 90% of the damage?
At least half the classes are advised to take certain back up contingencies to remain effective in combat (Longarm/Specialization). Why can't a Operative?
Loss of Trick attack against a single foe is going to hurt, but its not going to cripple you, if as you said with melee, you have back ups.
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A drop in damage doesn't make someone useless is what I am trying to say.
It depends on the level of the drop and what a characters options are besides damage.
An operative could easily go from 1d6+4d8+3 to just the d6+3 for their weapon and specialization (which they're going to do at least once before figuring out the thing is immune). Then your plan is for them to use a sniper rifle (Old sparky), which will be a much lower level weapon without trick damage but with full level to specialization
Usual damage 24.5 (100%)
No trick damage, -10% for no flat footed 6.5= 5.85 =23.9% of damage
Using Old Sparky 10.5- 10% for no flat footed= 9.45=38.6%
Slightly more if the operative has a better primary weapon. Plus they're not flat footing the guy for the rest of the party.
In all likelyhood, a level 7 character doesn't even have a level 7 primary weapon. Much less a level 7 back up weapon (see below, your example has a character spending more than half of wbl on a back up weapon)
Well under half damage and not giving your debuff is pretty useless.
If every other class needs to have a back up on the chance something is awkward, why should the operative be immune to it?
Because the solution to the problems other classes have are already in the game. The game oddly enough doesn't have solutions to a problem you're inventing. The solution to a flying opponent is a jetpack. The solution to a fire immune opponent to mister zappy laser is the cold gun that brings him shame to use.
Most other characters at most levels have the damage divided between the weapon their, damage stat , and specialization, and class abilities. so removing or reducing one of those doesn't hurt that badly. (I usually recommend that someone buying weapons alternates damage types as they level up). But with the operative using dinky pistols (which like all ranged, don't add dex to damage) the bulk of the damage is in the class ability
8d6+10d8+10. 28 to 138 with about 66 average. 12d6+20 32 to 92 with about 64 average damage, with the option to multi fire.
At higher levels, how is that loosing 90% of the damage?
1) Most of the game isn't at higher levels. If you pick level 20, the LEAST played level, and try to extrapolate from there to the entire game your results are going to be wonky.
1a) The trick attack damage is more important before level 10. After that weapon dice goes a little nuts. From levels 1-10 on an operative weapon you're looking at an increase of 1 or 2 dice tops. (and then you only really need a bigger weapon to put a bigger fusion suite on it)
2) The entire wealth of a level 20 character is 782,000 credits. The coil rifle used in your example costs 590,000 credits
It isn't remotely a reasonable expectation for a character to have spent more than half their wealth on a back up weapon rather than their main weapon and other equipment.
At least half the classes are advised to take certain back up contingencies to remain effective in combat (Longarm/Specialization). Why can't a Operative?
Because there isn't a contingency for losing your major class feature.
Loss of Trick attack against a single foe is going to hurt, but its not going to cripple you, if as you said with melee, you have back ups.
You aren't taking a back up weapon that can be swapped out. You're taking out a class feature that is baked into the character and stuck there.
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I will say it was absolutely hillarious when the monster that negated operatives trick met My murdermouse, a max strength operative. Seeing the other operatives couldn't trick attack, she just ran up and started beating on the thing with a sonic frisbee instead.
"I move away from the operative, how much damage could they do on an AO..
"CLANG
"...OH....."
But that's a matter of build, not something you can adjust on the fly.
A drop in damage doesn't make someone useless is what I am trying to say.It depends on the level of the drop and what a characters options are besides damage.
An operative could easily go from 1d6+4d8+3 to just the d6+3 for their weapon and specialization (which they're going to do at least once before figuring out the thing is immune). Then your plan is for them to use a sniper rifle (Old sparky), which will be a much lower level weapon without trick damage but with full level to specialization
Usual damage 24.5 (100%)
No trick damage, -10% for no flat footed 6.5= 5.85 =23.9% of damage
Using Old Sparky 10.5- 10% for no flat footed= 9.45=38.6%Slightly more if the operative has a better primary weapon. Plus they're not flat footing the guy for the rest of the party.
In all likelyhood, a level 7 character doesn't even have a level 7 primary weapon. Much less a level 7 back up weapon (see below, your example has a character spending more than half of wbl on a back up weapon)
Well under half damage and not giving your debuff is pretty useless.
If every other class needs to have a back up on the chance something is awkward, why should the operative be immune to it?Because the solution to the problems other classes have are already in the game. The game oddly enough doesn't have solutions to a problem you're inventing. The solution to a flying opponent is a jetpack. The solution to a fire immune opponent to mister zappy laser is the cold gun that brings him shame to use.
Most other characters at most levels have the damage divided between the weapon their, damage stat , and specialization, and class abilities. so removing or reducing one of those doesn't hurt that badly. (I usually recommend that someone buying weapons alternates damage types as they level up). But with the operative using dinky pistols (which like all ranged, don't add dex to damage) the bulk of the damage is in the class ability...
You quoted the 20th level wealth gained per encounter - they’re supposed to start at that level with 3.775 million.
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I used high level stuff purely because you said at higher levels.
You earlier point is Operatives are one trick ponies, Well a character purely built for Melee is a one trick pony. Except when it comes to the melee guy, hes expected to buy gear that doesn't cover his main focus, like a back up range weapon. So why is an Operative immune to having to buy a back up sniper rifle? Not every armour can take a Jet pack, and unless you are telling the Power Armour Melee guy to restrict himself to a couple armour types, he has to invest in a Ranged weapon, like an Operative would have to if there was actually something immune to Trick attack.
Every other class with a major focus has to adapt, but because the most common method for a Operative to deal damage is with trick attack, he doesn't have to is what it sounds like your saying. Trick attack is not the only thing Operatives get. They have a good variety of other abilities with one which gives them a major combat advantage. Why is the Operative the only class able to do 4 attacks? Something that isn't connected to Trick attack.
I don't see Trick attack as the be all and end all of the Operative. Its not like throwing a spell caster into an Anti magic field. Yes, I would say Trick attack is maybe half of their combat capacity, like a Armour storm Blitz Soldier going Melee. I can't see why the Operative shouldn't have to have a back up weapon which isn't in their focus but the Melee guy has to.
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Depending on the level and weapon, triple or quad attack can mitigate the 'immune to trick attack' problem.
Now, that said, monsters that are immune to class features aren't 'neat' or 'nice' little surprise, they're annoying BS to run into as a player.
You earlier point is Operatives are one trick ponies, Well a character purely built for Melee is a one trick pony.
Operatives are sort of shoe horned into the one trick pony thing, at least until triple attack kicks in. (even then that's usually an outright sub par option that doesnt really seem to work as intended)
Soldiers are not shoe horned into the one trick pony thing, that's the difference. An operative is a one trick pony by game design, if a soldier is a one trick pony it's by choice.
Except when it comes to the melee guy, hes expected to buy gear that doesn't cover his main focus, like a back up range weapon. So why is an Operative immune to having to buy a back up sniper rifle?
It's not that they shouldn't, its that the drop in effectiveness is greater for the operative than most others.
A soldier that can't melee had options to melee: jet packs, thrown weapon fusion, force soles for the powered armor user.
Say a soldier does 2d6 + strength + 1/2 strength + Level
A soldiers back up weapon in case of weapon immunity should be doing 1d4 + strength + 1/2 strength + level vs.
A back up ranged weapon would be 1d8+ level. A pretty big drop but thats sort of a problem with range.
Not every Armour can take a Jet pack, and unless you are telling the Power Armour Melee guy to restrict himself to a couple armour types, he has to invest in a Ranged weapon, like an Operative would have to if there was actually something immune to Trick attack.
1) The soldier chose to go power armor, which is a fair bit more choice than the operative has to go trick attack
2) It makes no sense, but by the rules force soles work. If you're in power armor you should have force soles II and as much movement as possible to run up an invisible stair case and whap things.
3) If you go power armor you know you have mobility issues and need to deal with it somehow: either find a way around it (See below) and or bolt a giant rocket launcher onto your armor as a plan B.
Every other class with a major focus has to adapt, but because the most common method for a Operative to deal damage is with trick attack, he doesn't have to is what it sounds like your saying.
I'm saying they don't have to because
1) Melee being shut off is a known thing.Trick attack shutting off is not. Its a world with things with laser pistols and jet packs its a reasonable expectation for the characters and the players that there will be things further away than 5 feet. Creatures with various types of immunizes and resistances are a known thing. Shutting down trick attack is a very rare thing that's not in any player facing material. Planning for a known known is different than planning for an unknown unknown.
2) they really can't. Its baked so far into the operative class there really isn't another option besides don't be an operative.
Trick attack is not the only thing Operatives get. They have a good variety of other abilities with one which gives them a major combat advantage. Why is the Operative the only class able to do 4 attacks? Something that isn't connected to Trick attack.
Quad attack is really high level. If you were playing at that level and quad attack was available i wouldn't be nearly as adamant about shutting off trick attack as I am for most levels. I still wouldn't even consider it without running the math.
But for the majority of time in most campaigns trick attack is the only in combat ability they have.
I can't see why the Operative shouldn't have to have a back up weapon which isn't in their focus but the Melee guy has to.
It's not that they shouldn't have it it's that you're underestimating how much you're hurting the operative. For one thing, only one of the sniper rifles isn't unwieldy (is wieldy? Is wieldy a thing?) so full attack isn't even an option. you calso can't tripple/quad attack with a sniper rifle.
Shutting off the trick attack would be fairer and more interesting if it's a limited ability, or comes with some sort of a roll. Maybe he needs to beat your skill check with his skill check, or maybe he shuts you off by quipping at you during the attack and you can try some sort of skill check to quip back and negate him from negating you. And if he misses it badly or you beat him by enough at his own game he takes extra damage or an AC penalty or something risky.
I pretty much agree with BNW.
The only nerf similar to immunity to trick attack I might consider would be to declare one skill off limits so that the operative would be forced to rely on a different, likely slightly less optimal skill.
This is going to end up functionally identical to a -1 to -4 penalty to the skill check, which is broadly inline with other debuffs in the system already.
If you think up a decent teason for why the skill in question doesnt work it becomes a lore thing that fleshes out the world somewhat which is a plus, in my book.
Unfortunately, I still ain't going to see Trick attack as something so needed by the Operative that peoples advice to every other class shouldn't also be an option for the Operative, but thats the problem, I can't convince you to change your views.
As a player I never had a problem with a NME randomly showing up (1 in 15) which screwed my main focus because I was a one trick pony, to be honest, I expect it. Like a Pyro Sorcerer in Pathfinder, something immune to fire or magic immune. The one trick Pony element means I don't have all those buff spells or special circumstance spells.
Its not like I was after a list of Immunes so I can solely use them, it was mostly just to throw one in if it made in interesting choice. Someone not being able to use one ability vs one enemy in about every 20 missions I don't see as a problem. I get that people seem to rate Trick attack as a much higher requirement for an Operative then I do, which is probably where the issue arises.
With the Operative having so much more then just Trick attack, it never sits with me as 'its all they can do'. They have more skill bonuses then any class, more attacks (Later level) and their class abilities are more varied and less restrictive then others. The Mechanic can about manage to stay even with an Operative at the 1 thing you think they would excel at, their class choices are more limited then an Operatives and can't match up to an Operative in combat
I for one am not saying “it’s all that they can do”. That’s kind of missing my point.
In general, players choose their classes and builds based on cool things they want to do - I generally find it annoys them to just tell them their class feature doesn’t work. (I would hesitate to deny a Solarion their revelations or a soldier his gear boosts as well).
I tend to prefer making things harder rather than making things impossible (I similarly prefer resistances to immunities in monsters).
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It's like saying 'this monster is immune to solar weapons'
Oh sure, the solarian probably has some sort of thrown melee weapon that's still decent, but it's not clever or fun from the player's perspective, just annoying.
With the Operative having so much more then just Trick attack, it never sits with me as 'its all they can do'.
This is a deliberate strawman at this point. It's not "all they can do" it's "all they can do in combat" The difference is important and has been pointed out repeatedly. You are trying really, really hard to justify doing this, not evaluate what you're doing fairly.
They also have triple and quad attack is a mathematicians answer. (ironically seeing why that is could use a mathematician) Yes these options exist(at some levels). For the vast majority of operatives they are absolutely terrible compared to trick attacking. You can math out the difference and it's pretty big, especially if there is cover. Since you can't move and full attack cover is incredibly likely.
You're punishing the operative for their out of combat skill supremacy by messing with their combat ability, where they are fairly well balanced. Inventing new rules to just to screw over a player for their class being good and another class being undertuned is going to go over like lead balloon.
The player doesn't deserve punishment. The player didn't munchkin or rules lawyer or minmax their way to being a better mechanic than the mechanic it just came with the class and the mechanic (and to some degree all of starfinders) doesn't really match up "This class is amazing at doing _____" with any abilities to actually make them amazing at doing ______ "
As a player I never had a problem with a NME randomly showing up (1 in 15) which screwed my main focus because I was a one trick pony
NME= non melee enemy?
Because that's your own fault for not having a reasonable level of mobility on a melee character. You know things accross a room or flying or on a cliff are a thing. Neither of those conditions exist for an operative: sneak attack shutting off isn't a thing they're aware of AND there's jack they can do about it.
What is the fault of an operative for trick attacking? They should have ______ ?
You seem really focused on justifying doing this and don't seem to really be considering the reasons not to. You're not answering the objections you're ignoring or deflecting.
Look at your groups operative, compare the damage they'll do and consider what it would be like for you to be hit with a no save no initiative debuff like that.
NME is just a crap short hand I use for enemy.
I am not justifying me doing it, I have accepted people disagree with it and I have also accepted there is no beastie out there with immunity.
I am not punishing a class, I just don't see the Operative being a combat class, so I don't see Combat being their One and only.
I am not trying to invent new rules, I asked if there was anything, that is all. Like they can't trick attack a Door, I accept it. I never said I wanted to invent anything to stop it, only if there was something.
This started as a simple question of 'Is there a creature or enemy out there with immunity?' and my one crap choice of words of 'Nice' instead of 'Little' has blown this out of proportion.
To be clear, I do not intend to add a new monster that has immunity.
I only asked if there was one.
Edit to add, I am only defending my view Trick attack not being 90% of an Operative
the target of a trick attack, it can attempt a Bluff or Sense
Motive check in response. If the jinsul base commander’s
result equals or exceeds that of the trick attack skill check,
the trick attack is unsuccessful. If the jinsul’s check exceeds
the trick attack check by 5 or more, the creature performing
the trick attack gains the off-target condition until the end of
their next turn.
The creatures that can do this sort of thing (which were not well received by players) didn't have flat out immunity. They had a roll to negate the trick attack ( they had to beat the operatives trick attack score) or could only negate one trick or crit per round.
Having played most of those scenarios with my operative, my reaction was: Sure, it was a nasty surprise, but as BNW has pointed out, countering the trick attack required an opposed skill check. That meant the operative still had a decent chance of getting the extra damage, because it's hard to beat their bonus in their best skill. And in the next scenario with those creatures, it was annoying but we expected it from then on. It just fueled our hate of a nasty enemy.
I've actually been far more concerned about my character's survival when I'm facing an operative of roughly my own level. Against the trick-denying critters, not killing them as fast meant the party took more damage, but that tended to get spread around, or dumped on the tanks who could (usually) take it. But when it's your own schtick turned against you, it quickly turns into a one-on-one race to see which operative can murder the other faster, so that the survivor can get back to picking off everyone else. It's vicious, and personal.
Well cheers for the Info and the perspective of encountering them. My group has recently encountered an Operative whose sole job was to escape, due to the flight of our Witchwarper, the Warper ended up being trick attacked a couple times. Only just hit his HP in damage (Operative got away) but a Relaxu during a 10 min rest covered it.
On a similar note, is there anything to help a PC against Trick attacks?
Edit: Just looked up that Jinsul... Why does he have that ability? his skills as standard are Athletics, Computers, Intimidate, Mysticism... The ability uses Bluff or Sense motive... A +2 (Wis) vs a DC of Minimum 25
I think he has that ability because he's a leveled down version of a character with a MUCH better sense motive. But he's rolling 1d20+2 against an operatives 1d20 + 15ish, and he's under CR'd to fight operatives that can take 10 on their trick attacks so he wouldn't have to hit the DC 25.
An astute weapon fusion (i level 3) raises your effective CR by 2 against operatives trying to trick attack you, and NPC operatives can't do the take 10 thing so it remains helpful.
It helped that there was, eventually, an anti caster jinsul (who/s anti caster abilities were a bit underwhelming) and even an anti envoy jinsul (who we surmised must have been a music critic in their civilian life)