| Narxzul |
A friend of mine wants to play a shield bashing character with shield spikes and the shield master feat which seems all nice and good but I started looking and I don't understand how these mechanics work together exactly.
Shield master let's you apply your defensive bonuses to your offense, seems strong but shields don't make the best weapons I guess, so far so good.
Shield spikes say that "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right." Shield master seems to break this and it also says that the spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon of it's own.
So my question is, how do these enhancement bonuses work together ? can I have a +3 shield with +1 (wasted since it would be the same bonus as the defensive part) shocking, corrosive spikes giving me, essentially a +5 "weapon" ,since all this would apply in a single shield bash, for the price of a +3 armor and +3 weapon ?
I'm thinking I must be wrong because this seems kind of insane if it works like this.
Thanks in advance.
| AwesomenessDog |
I believe if you get shield spikes, that overrides the Shield Master feat, which in turn normally overrides the fact that a shield has to be enchanted as a weapon and shield independently. Not entirely sure on that claim if someone else wants to weigh in, but considering how much more valuable the enhancement bonus is to simply increasing the damage die by a single step, it's generally better to not use a spiked shield unless you want to fully invest in it and not just use the stop gap of Shield Master.
To top this off, you have to enchant the shield enhancement itself with the bashing quality as opposed to the weapon enhancement side, which is nice to free up some room for other things (if you say wanted a a flaming shield or something).
| VoodistMonk |
They don't interact together, at all.
You EITHER use Shield Master's ability to apply the shield's defense to its offense... OR... you enchant your shield spikes as their own weapon. To do both would be completely wasted/pointless.
Now, there are cases where one might want both, and pick which to use at any given time to overcome various DR... but ultimately, Shield Master and Weapon Versatility would probably be better.
Shield Master is where it's at. You get a +5 weapon for half price. If you want futher effects on the shield, play a class with access to something like the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon, Magus's Arcane Pool, or Paladin's Divine Bond. But that flat +5 is far superior to any stupid flaming property one might be foolish enough to waste their money on.
| Derklord |
Shield Master only applies if you attack with it as a shield (regular shield bash), rather than attack with the spikes, which an enhancement bonus on a spiked shield explicitly doesn't improve.
Yeah, it's not 100% explicitly said that Shield Master doesn't apply to attacks with a spiked shield, but remember, this is the feat that required an FAQ because as originally written it said "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon.", rather than saying you don't suffer TWF penalties.
| Narxzul |
Thanks for the clarification everybody but your answers gave me a couple more questinons haha
If a shield bash and shield spikes are separate attacks, can you shield bash and attack with the spikes in the same turn, using the shield like a double weapon / two weapon fighting?
Would shield master reduce this penalties or do the spikes not qualify for the "while you are wielding another weapon" part since it's technically part of the same thing ?
Also, can you use effortless lace on a spiked shield to wield a bigger shield ? Since it technically transforms the shield into a piercing melee weapon even tho this would affect regular shield bash too.
And finally, something that voodistmonk made me think. If they don't interact together at all and you talked about overcoming DR, do regular shield bashes, even with a spiked shield, still do bashing damage ?
| Derklord |
I was unclear in my last post. I don't think you can chose how to attack with a spiked shield, as the shield spikes description says they "turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon". The description is about as unclear as it could possibly be, though - it say the attacks are "like making a shield bash attack" (which means that it isn't actually one), and the very next sentence it says "a shield bash made with [a spiked shield]". I think that line should actually say "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of attaks made with it".
In any case, you're still holding a singular object; it cannot fulfill the requirement of "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand", as it's in your main hand (and there is no weapon switching between hands in the RAW). There're weapons in the game with more than one attack mode that aren't douple weapons, they don't allow solo-TWFing them.
It should be noted, by the way, that your original question als applies for the option stated in the shield bash description of "the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right", not spikes required. I don't really have an argument that prevents the interaction between that and Shield Master apart form pointing out that Shield Master is literally one of the worst written feats in the entire game.
Also, can you use effortless lace on a spiked shield to wield a bigger shield ?
That does seem to be legal.
Belafon
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As Diego said the description of Shield Spikes/Spiked Shield has always been a bit muddling. Mainly because of the fact you are "putting on" the spike. Are you making an attack with the shield or the spike?
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
The way most people reconcile the language is to look at the weapon tables in the CRB and UE and see that a spiked shield has its own entry. As a singular item. So you treat a "spiked shield" as an entire item, not as separate things. Just think of a light steel spiked shield as a light steel shield that does a bit more damage when you bash with it and the damage is piercing.
Once you make that connection, everything else falls into place. (You can enchant it as a shield and/or as a weapon, just like a regular shield. It is a shield, so you can use Shield Master. etc.)