trip vs ranged full attack


Rules Questions


Hi, it seems i'm unable to find an answer to this question/situation:

I have a ranger with multiple shots.
He is threaten by a troll in a small room, so he can move out.
The ranger decides to full attack anyway.
1st attack, provokes AoO.
Troll goes tripping (ranger can't take advantage of this AoO).
Ranger gets tripped.

Does the Ranger looses all the attacks? How does it work?

I ruled he only missed the standard action, as if he was only making one attack.

Options i'd considered:
1- Miss a standard action, still got move action. This is the one i applied.
2- Miss the full round.
3- Doesn't loose the second attack, but is prone.
4- Doesn't loose any attack, but is prone.

Discarded 2 because it's too costly.
Discarded 4 because on the first shot you aim, but someone tripped you so you loose the aiming.

But 3... i don't know... not sure.

TL/DR: how does trip affects ranged full attack when applied in the first aoo?


the rules of full attack(in the combat section) state that after you take the 1st attack of the full attack action you can stop and consider it only a standard. (some GM rule that is only if you didn't use anything that specifically ask for full round\attack in that action. like use rapid shot and took that -2 to all attacks including the 1st one which you took, but raw you can take the penalty and still stop, as long as it's not a full round action like charge etc).

more so you can designate follow up attacks after you see the outcome of each attack - so if you kill the enemy with 2 attacks you can use the remaining on a different enemy in range.

do notice that some ranged weapons can be shot prone. in which case that said ranger could have still taken his full round action from the prone position.

from the combat section, right at the start:
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack

After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

one last thing. the aoo happen BEFORE what ever was made to provoke it. that mean the ranger didn't use his standard action yet and still can do other stuff. even full round action that can be made while prone ,like crawling. (he was so intent on trying to shoot he left himself open to aoo and got hit before he took his first shot).

if he was charging and moved a bit before provoking - and then got tripped. his charge would have stopped and since he started a full round action and can't continue it. he lose it. but here he didn't even get to start his full round action.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
one last thing. the aoo happen BEFORE what ever was made to provoke it. that mean the ranger didn't use his standard action yet and still can do other stuff. even full round action that can be made while prone ,like crawling. (he was so intent on trying to shoot he left himself open to aoo and got hit before he took his first shot).

No, decidedly no!

The AoO is triggered by the character attempting an action. He doesn't get to complete it, but he has still spent the action.

CRB wrote:
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table 8–2 notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Performed. You did the action.

Quote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

It interrupts the action, it doesn't turn back time.


are you saying he did take the shot?
when?
the aoo happened before that shot was made. i agree that if he would have made an action that stated before the aoo happens then yes - it has been nulled by the aoo and he lose it (like that charge action) but here he never got to make his shot. and by the rules i stated above where 'You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones' i would argue it doesn't make a difference if the see how they turn out happen before the 2nd shot or the 1st.
say he uses a crosbow which can be used prone. would you still say he lost his 1st shot?

by the rules you yourself brought that aoo interrupted him before he took his first shot. and after the aoo is resolved he can take the rest of his allowed actions. if he can shoot prone he can shoot prone. if he has quick-draw he can pull a knife and throw it etc.

"immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn)"

all i do is allow him to complete his turn. if he started an action before the aoo, that action got stopped (maybe, not all get) but the rest of his turn continue as it should. so he get to use his full attack if he can. and decide how to use it. maybe not change to a different full round action like crawling. but he can defiantly continue his full attack. or break it out to standard action attack and then move.

let's say he was casting a spell and not shooting. if he can make his concentration for falling (whatever that would be) he should be allowed to try to cast his spell while prone and then take his move action.

since his action did provoke, he should be still try to continue it, but it has not been stopped yet. the question is - can he preform it while prone?


Urheil wrote:
TL/DR: how does trip affects ranged full attack when applied in the first aoo?

The tripped character is prone, and has already started a full-attack action. That's pretty much it. If the character can make ranged attacks while prone (like crossbow or firearm allow), they can make all their normal attacks. If they can't (because they're using a bow, sling, or thrown weapon), they could make melee attacks instead; if that's not a sensible option, tough luck. In either case, the character has the option to abort the full-attack (unless they've used something like Manyshot), and thus only make a single attack or only waste the standard action, and spend the move action as they chose (which could be to stand up!). So the correct answer is #4 - nothing say you lose the first attack.

zza ni wrote:
are you saying he did take the shot?

No, he's saying the character has already spend the standard action, and thus can't make any full-round actions (apart from the started full-attack action) or standard actions (apart form the quasi-attack action spend on the single attack). I think the disagreement between you two is mainly confusion - you wrote "full round action that can be made while prone ,like crawling", but crawling isn't a full-round action. A move action that can be performed while prone (like crawl) can be done in this situation, whereas a a full-round action (like loading a heavy crossbow) can not be performed.

zza ni wrote:
(some GM rule that is only if you didn't use anything that specifically ask for full round\attack in that action. like use rapid shot and took that -2 to all attacks including the 1st one which you took, but raw you can take the penalty and still stop, as long as it's not a full round action like charge etc).

Note that Manyshot explicitly "locks you into using a full attack action as soon as you use it to shoot two arrows" per this FAQ. No one cares if you take a penalty, but if you profit from making the first attack as part of a full attack, you're locked into a full attack.


yes. is why i brought rapid shot. and not manyshot. all agree about manyshot (same for charge etc) question was for things like rapid shot such etc that add an attack after the 1st but penalize the 1st. (was going to bring flurry, but i think that is a full round action of it's own)


wow! thanks everyone!

so, let me explain this as I understood it (english is not my first language as you all can imagine).

1- When the ranger decided to use *rapid shot*, triggers the AoO.
2- Troll trips ranger
3- If the ranger has a weapon that can be shot while prone, then continues to do so completing the full round. If not, still has the move action (or cancel de full attack and uses the move action).

Is that correct?

If that's correct being prone with a loaded light crossbow and being able to attack anyway without any extra negative bonuses nor concentration checks for "maintaining the arrow on the bow and fixed on the target"... it seems... i don't know... like it doesn't care you are prone while you were attacking...


well the enemies get +4 on melee attacks on him if he's prone.
and if said troll got combat reflexes he can attack for every shot he provoke (as long as he still have aoo left to make).

but yea. being prone is a good thing sometimes (specially in ranged only fights if you are with the cross bow. ranged attack vs prone are at -4)


zza ni wrote:

well the enemies get +4 on melee attacks on him if he's prone.

and if said troll got combat reflexes he can attack for every shot he provoke (as long as he still have aoo left to make).

but yea. being prone is a good thing sometimes (specially in ranged only fights if you are with the cross bow. ranged attack vs prone are at -4)

great! thanks a lot to you and all of you!


I have to say, one of the things I like best about Starfinder is getting rid of AoO ability to interrupt things.

It's honestly one of the more disruptive and annoying aspects of PF1.

Readied actions are just as bad if not worse.


I mean, trading most of a full attack's worth of damage to ensure someone else doesn't do a combat critical thing is a pretty good balancing option. If anything, it's too powerful when youre say a caster and youre not trading a full round but just pushing your spell to a slightly later point in time.


Urheil wrote:
If that's correct being prone with a loaded light crossbow and being able to attack anyway without any extra negative bonuses nor concentration checks for "maintaining the arrow on the bow and fixed on the target"... it seems... i don't know... like it doesn't care you are prone while you were attacking...

That crossbows can attack just fine while prone is unquestionable: "A prone attacker [...] cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)." CRB pg. 568 Since crossbows are much worse than bows, as they require an additional feat (rapid Reload), can't profit from Manyshot or Deadeye Bowman, and can't add strength to damage, I don't see the issue. Especially since being prone makes the still adjacent troll's next turn pretty deadly...

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