I am trying to wrap my head around the chase rules from Game Mastering Guide and I have a hard time understanding this section:
Run Away: The PCs attempt to escape. They’ll go first in initiative since they’re being pursued. It’s usually best to start them one obstacle ahead of their foes and end the chase if they reach a certain location or are three obstacles ahead of their foes at the end of a round.
If I understand the rules correctly, at the beginning of the chase (let's say players are the pursued) the NPC pursuers are only one obstacle behind. During each round, players have the chance to win the required amount of Chase Points in order to advance to the next obstacle and the Chase Point Pool is reset to zero. Pursuers automatically advance during this round, so they will always be following just 1 obstacle behind (or they will catch up with the players, if the latter have failed to win the required amount of Chase Points).
So under which circumstances they players can widen the distance between them and their pursuers, in order to be three obstacles ahead?
Ultimately it comes down to how the GM builds the chase.
If the GM of 4 players builds a chase that requires 4 points to progress past an obstacle and crit success still only provides 1 point - then your GM either hates you or is railroading you and just trying to give the illusion of options and agency.
If instead the GM builds a chase that requires 4 points to progress past an obstacle, a crit success provides 2 points, and there are plenty of options for each obstacle for all of the players to have something they are good at to attempt for each obstacle, and sets the DC to something reasonable (where crit success is a bit more frequent than failure) - that can work pretty well.
Thank you guys, my mistake was not taking into account that with critical success rolls, players who didn't act yet can act for winning Chase Points for the next obstacle before the round ends. Now it makes more sense!
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To pile on a bit with the others here - it's easy to design a chase that's set up to fail. Unfortunately the rules are written a bit muddled. My aggressively summarized take on it is:
* Chase DCs should actually be fairly low.
* The PCs should be succeeding a lot, and critting a lot, because of this. Getting a lot of successes and breaking through obstacles makes the chase actually feel FAST.
* The number of successes needed to pass an obstacle is high enough that this low DC really is needed.
When you set the DCs for an obstacle, you’ll typically be using simple DCs. Use a proficiency rank that’s generally appropriate for the PCs’ level if you want the obstacle to be a significant one. As noted earlier, you’ll typically want to select a couple different ways the group can get past an obstacle. At least one check should be have an easy or very easy adjustment, while the other check should have a standard or hard DC. In some cases you might use something other than a simple DC; for example, if a specific NPC has put up a magical barrier, you would use their spell DC. This might result in some pretty tough DCs or even impassable obstacles, so use this carefully!
If a PC improvises a different way to get around an obstacle from what you planned, set the DC just like you would normally when picking a DC on the fly. Don’t worry about adjusting the DC of the check to be easy or very easy, because the PC is likely to be good at the skill they’ve chosen to use.
For example, a level 1 party ought to be facing Untrained or Trained DCs; probably a mix of them. That means DC of 10 or 15. Next is the Easy (-2), Very Easy (-5) or Hard (+2) adjustment to the DC.
So a typical obstacle should have one low and one high DC. If the Very Easy DC also happened to be the Untrained one that could be as low as DC 5. (A Hard Trained one would be 17).
If you look at how PFS does this... not so consistently. PFS tends to use the level based DCs, and at least the earlier chases tended to actually just be on-DC, not Easy. And people were also complaining a lot that the chases were overly hard and punishing...
So, better to lowball the DCs and if it really felt too easy make the next one a bit harder. But don't worry about the PCs getting generally getting many successes here, that's working as intended, it's a cheap adrenaline/dopamine rush :)
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A few other things to consider. At higher levels, lack of proficiency becomes a bigger issue, so you might want to add more than 2 options to an obstacle. Also it's a good idea to avoid tying all the checks to the same ability score because it doesn't really help if for example the dwarven barbarian gets a choice of deception, diplomacy or performance.
And the other thing - it's nice if the players really understand how the base chase mechanics work, because they're supposed to be able to apply tacticas as a group. It's not "round 1, everyone bash their head against obstacle 1; round 2, everyone do obstacle 2". Rather it should be "round 1, the specialists in obstacle 1 get us past it quickly, then the remaining characters take a crack at obstacle 2; round 2, we put our expects in obstacle 2 to work and the remainder starts chipping away at obstacle 3".
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Alternatively, instead of having the DCs of the checks down at the easy range, the GM can lower the number of successes needed in order to clear an obstacle. The standard is one success per character, but there are other options that can make sense.
For terrain type obstacles, it can make sense that each obstacle only takes one success to clear. Any one character can effectively remove the obstacle and allow the entire party to pass. Two successes also works for that - a pair of characters can clear an obstacle for the party. This can be typical for the entire chase or mixed in with the normal 1/character obstacles.
Some examples:
* athletics check to move a large log across a gap or river. Once the log is placed, the party can move freely across it.
* diplomacy or intimidation check to move a crowd of people out of the way of a narrow street.
* thievery check to pick the lock of a locked door that is in the path.
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Yeah that would also work - go left by reducing DC, or right by reducing number of successes needed. But I think the overall goal is that typically, it doesn't require the whole party to clear an obstacle. Getting past more than one obstacle per round feels fast, and that's important.
But also, it opens up the actual game to a bit of tacticking by the players. If the only way to get past an obstacle is for everyone to bash all their dice against it, the players have no real choices. It's just hoping your luck pans out. But if it's enough for about 2/3 of the players who are good at this particular obstacle to do it, then you can start making choices. Like "well the rogue can do it of course cuz she's loaded with skills. But the cleric is also good at it and not good at a lot of other skills, so let him try it first and we can keep the rogue in reserve for the next obstacle."
For that I think it's good if the players can see ahead just a few tiles, so they can compare "who's good at this obstacle" with "who do we want to keep in reserve for the next one".
Also, players need to learn these rules, but once they get it, it'll make the second and third chase run faster. So spending a few minutes more to explain it will be worth it.
Hello.
I'm necroing this because we've just done a chase sequence yesterday in strength of thousands.
As a player it was very frustrating to run the chase sequence from book 2, because of how prone to failure you are.
Stenght of thousands puts a disproportionate emphasis on knowledge skills as a school AP. So when we were stuck trying to bypass all obstacles with only trained skills we had non main attributes on with a level 5 party agaisnt DC 21 obstacles, things got our of hand real fast!
I think the key to balance here is to be permissive with players using items and spells to straight up bypass an obstacle. What allowed us to narrowly get the fleeing party was me casting stinking cloud on the crowd obstacle to bypass it. Otherwise we would have failed, and we had some decent rolls!
There's also the question of familiars, eidolons and animal companions. The number of successes needed is per PC, does it mean that a bear can help the party with its high athletic for free? An eidolon too? Even my corgi familiar in the chase was rolling high enough stealth and acrobatics to be useful. It kind of felt like cheating though.
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Only Eidolons get to make skill checks or do anything outside of combat at the same time as their summoner because of Act Together, minions take your action to do a thing so it's either you go or they do.
It could be argued that act together is in a way very similar to command a minion/command an animal as all three of those combinations give you a total of 4 actions.
Yeah, Minion action economy is only fully defined in encounter mode where actions and rounds are both specified. Chases use similar terms, but don't specify a time scale.
And even in encounter mode, commanding a Minion does not take your entire turn - only 1/3 of it. Why should a chase mode take the entire character's turn to command the Minion?
Minions exist as creatures outside of combat and can take actions, so they'd be able to help. They could also be a hindrance if the number of successes required hinged on the number of characters in the chase, so leaving them behind or tucking a familiar in a bag might be better depending on their skills.
The rule about eidolons being able to act as any other creature in exploration exists because they share actions with the summoner and would otherwise be limited because only one member of the bond could act over a given set of actions. Minions have their own actions and can just use those the same as any other character, only in an encounter are they limited to taking 2 actions a round when commanded.
I'm confused. The whole party succeeds or fails?
If the fighter and monk make Athletics checks to leap or climb over a wall, how does that let the wizard attempt the next obstacle at all? He's still on the wrong side of the wall.
I'm confused. The whole party succeeds or fails?
If the fighter and monk make Athletics checks to leap or climb over a wall, how does that let the wizard attempt the next obstacle at all? He's still on the wrong side of the wall.