Hunted Shot is an action that consists of making 2 Strikes against your prey. Double Slice is a 2-action activity that states you make 2 Strikes, each with a different weapon, against the same target.
For both of these feats, what happens if the first Strike kills your target? Do you "spend" the 2nd Strike and does using the feat count as 2 attacks as your Multiple Attack Penalty?
Must you do everything stated in an ability? So, Strike the target, and Strike them after they fall? If the answer is no, does it still increase your MAP to -10?
I'm wondering whether the design intent is that you do declare beforehand that you're using X ability which involves 2 or more Strikes, and you swallow the resulting multiple attack penalty regardless of what happens. It seems like that would create an interesting tradeoff that makes using these abilities not always an automatic choice. You have the option of using the ability that is a more "efficient" use of your actions, but you sacrifice the flexibility of pivoting to do something else if you were to do a normal Strike that might defeat the creature.
(Similar question for Flurry of Blows and there is only one creature within reach.)
Those abilities have you add the damage together before applying, so this should not happen. Even Flurry of Blows, where you could have chosen multiple targets, has this language so I think you'd need to announce your targets first, though I suppose you could swap to a different target with your second blow if your first lands and you feel it should kill. But if it doesn't kill, it's too late IMO to add your second attack if the first fails to kill since their damage has to stack before applying.
For Double Slice specifically, I can't think of any benefit of not making the second attack. You have already spent the action, and the action still counts as two attacks for MAP. So go ahead and roll for overkill.
For Hunted Shot, if you are tracking ammunition zealously it may be slightly beneficial to not send that second arrow. But I'm not sure how important that actually is.
For both of these feats, what happens if the first Strike kills your target? Do you "spend" the 2nd Strike and does using the feat count as 2 attacks as your Multiple Attack Penalty?I haven't seen where the rules address this spefically. This has been debated before and there was some disagreement. I believe the consensus was that you pay the penalties of increased MAP (or two action cost) regardless of whether you have to physically commit to the second attack. Similar to Rapid Shot in 1e, if you intended on using Rapid Shot, you had to pay the -2 penalty on the first shot, even if you didn't fire the second. So the idea is that you're using the Double Slice technique at the start, you don't get to opt out of it if the second attack isn't possible or desired.
Must you do everything stated in an ability? So, Strike the target, and Strike them after they fall? If the answer is no, does it still increase your MAP to -10?As stated, haven't seen this officially addressed. However, you should note that Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown/Flurry of Blows do not require that you attack the same Target while Double Slice does. And again, the argument I would make is that you're using a technique and you don't get to opt out of it, halfway through the attack because that's not how the technique works from a physical perspective. It's like a quarterback starting his motion to throw the ball long...he doesn't get to change his range halfway through his throwing motion. To throw long, he's going to throw it differently than if he throws it short.
I'm wondering whether the design intent is that you do declare beforehand that you're using X ability which involves 2 or more Strikes, and you swallow the resulting multiple attack penalty regardless of what happens.Yes. I believe you have to declare the tactic before you roll dice and then you're committed to it. Whether or not you have to burn another arrow isn't specially stated, but I would argue...
Thanks. Okay, so no authoritative answer but all your reasoning here corresponds with my gut. I think these interpretations are a good thing, because it gives you occasion to not always do the same thing every turn. Sometimes you may want to just do a regular Strike instead of one of these feats against a low HP enemy.
Sometimes you may want to just do a regular Strike instead of one of these feats against a low HP enemy.This can be more true with Hunted Shot and Twin Takedown. Both of these are only usable on Prey. If you only have one action left, you may choose to simply make a Strike against a new target instead of burning the action to designate it as Prey.
Multiple hunted prey are something that can happen with the Double Prey feat.
None of the two-attack feats identify a requirement that you have to declare all targets before resolving the first attack. In fact, Flurry of Blows says make two "Strikes." The rules for strikes indicate you declare your target when making the Strike.
Requiring a player to declare all targets before using FoB would be a house rule. You'd be imposing a requirement that does not exist and runs contrary to the rules as written governing Strikes.
Looking all again, HS/TT/DS all state the attacks as "two Strikes" and none of them modify or alter the targeting rules in any way that requires a player declare both targets before rolling the first attack.
I agree it's not about the targeting, but it is about the damaging.
The damage is combined before applying so you can't "check to see if they fall or not" before the second Strike occurs because the second Strike's damage gets applied at the same time.Let's say you crit on the first attack, then if you feel that'll do enough damage, yes, you can swap the second attack elsewhere IMO assuming you haven't determined the damage yet. (That can be awkward since IMO players should be rolling the dice together to hasten combat!)
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Compare these abilities to Spinning Staff. This spell says "Make a melee Strike with your staff against one foe and then a second melee Strike with your staff against a different foe." This is VERY clear; you make one strike, and then make a second. No room for ambiguity. They could have easily said "Make two strikes with your staff, each against a different target." but they worded it in this way.
So, this either proves that the above are supposed to be simultaneous, or it proved that the developers understand this is an issue and don't want it to happen in future abilities.
The damage is combined before applying so you can't "check to see if they fall or not" before the second Strike occurs because the second Strike's damage gets applied at the same time.That's actually not what the rule states. I believe this is the same argument that arose last time. Double Slice requires that you attack the same target, so there's no need to discuss it.
Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown (and FoB is essentially the same) read as follows:
If both hit the same creature, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Apply your multiple attack penalty to each Strike normally.There's no requirement or need to consider that the attacks happen simultaneously. The attacks could happen 1 hour part and you can still satisfy the damage requirement rules. The second attack simply ignores Resistance/weakness. As such, I can fully apply each Strike as it happens and I will 100% produce the same outcome as if it were a single attack, with regards to damage.
This doesn't address whether the character can abort the attack, but it does allow the Strike to be fully resolved before declaring and rolling the second Strike.
You say the rules don't say to combine, then quote a rule saying to combine. Yes, it's only for Weaknesses & Resistances, but that's a specific stage in delivering damage. So while the PC might choose to Strike a different target with the 2nd Strike after landing the 1st, you can't wait until the 1st's damage is calculated. The 2nd one's total has to be there in that Weakness/Resistance phase; that's when you combine them.
Then you try to phrase it as if the 2nd attack ignores Weaknesses & Resistances which it very much doesn't because it doesn't necessarily share any traits with the 1st attack (depending on which feat/ability we're referencing). In fact, when Resistances are high compared to the damage, the 2nd attack may not do any damage at all. And Resistances & Weaknesses might change over time, perhaps in response to taking damage.
If your interpretation implies the ability for two Strikes to combine their damage a year apart, I'd say there's something faulty there.
While I did restate my POV, my other points were more counterarguments since yours led to odd ramifications:
-You seem to ignore the damage being combined, which the rule you quoted says does occur (for Weaknesses/Resistances). You went so far as to suggest combined damage can occur an hour apart. What would combined damage even mean in such an instance?
-You stated that the 2nd Strike ignores Weaknesses & Resistances. Nope, that's incorrect. Yes, the math often equates, but not always, especially if the 2nd applies one of those while the 1st doesn't or the 1st is a flubbed roll vs. a beefy Resistance and there's more Resistance to go through.
-Funnily enough I cannot recall discussing this before. :P I guess I'll take your word for it since it doesn't matter to me. Yet I'd think I wouldn't have let the above assertions rest. :)
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I just checked the wording in Magic Missile.
What is the relevance?
A) you have 3 (or even more at higher level) attacks
B) I know as a user it got resolved and you declare all targets ahead of dice rolling
C) the wording is pretty much the same. You choose the target for each Missile individually. If you shoot more than one Missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damages, resistances, weakness and so forth.
Might be an idea to check why you had to declare everything in case of MM ahead of time.
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I just checked the wording in Magic Missile.
What is the relevance?
A) you have 3 (or even more at higher level) attacks
B) I know as a user it got resolved and you declare all targets ahead of dice rolling
C) the wording is pretty much the same. You choose the target for each Missile individually. If you shoot more than one Missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damages, resistances, weakness and so forth.Might be an idea to check why you had to declare everything in case of MM ahead of time.
A level 9 Magic Missile has max 15 missiles. Your turn is about 6 seconds, and you have to spend 3 actions to Cast, so the 15 missiles would be firing out at an extremely rapid pace. It's not like a machine gun where you can fire missiles at one target until it dies and then change targets, you have to determine who you're firing missiles at first, then all the missiles fire at once once the spell finishes casting.
Rules wise, when you Cast a Spell you pick the Targets of the Spell as you cast it. If a target ceases to be a valid target of the spell after casting it, in this case, it dies from 2 missiles and you targeted it with 5, the spell just doesn't target that creature anymore. All other targets continue to be valid though.
Why would an ability, with similar wording to a spell, have different rules? When you start an activity you should have to declare targets before making any strikes, just like with Magic Missile.
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A spell happens in one moment. The casting usually takes multiple actions in time and the result then happens in that second after. Multiple attacks are not the same. If an enemy falls in between attacks, then the next ones can go elsewhere unless stated otherwise specifically as in Double Strike and Twin Feint. For all others you can choose your targets as you use your attacks as I read it.