Thedmstrikes |
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No. Please review this quote from the spell description which covers the part about the standard action portion of the spell:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
The language here is specific to allowing an extra attack, not a standard action and under no circumstances does it allow anything but a single extra attack and only when the full attack action is used.
When reviewing the Mythic Haste entry, it provides no benefit to this half of the spell, it only expands the move portion of the spell, even when augmented. RAW, there is no wiggle room for interpretation for this question. The full spell text below:The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
Affected creatures gain an additional move action each round. The movement speed increase changes to 50 feet, to a maximum of three times the creature’s normal speed for that movement type.
Augmented (3rd): If you expend two uses of mythic power, the movement speed increase changes to 70 feet, with no limit based on the creature’s normal speed. If an affected creature moves at least 30 feet on its turn, it can travel across liquid as if the liquid were solid. If the liquid deals damage on contact, the creature takes only half damage from moving across it.
Greedeye |
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No. Please review this quote from the spell description which covers the part about the standard action portion of the spell. The language here is specific to allowing an extra attack, not a standard action and under no circumstances does it allow anything but a single extra attack and only when the full attack action is used.
When reviewing the Mythic Haste entry, it provides no benefit to this half of the spell, it only expands the move portion of the spell, even when augmented. RAW, there is no wiggle room for interpretation for this question. The full spell text below:
...
Although I appreciate getting a reply, you seem to believe that I think haste is what grants me an extra standard action, which is completely false.
The extra standard action is from the Amazing Initiative mythic ability, as I had already mentioned in my post, which allows you to spend a free action and a mythic power to gain an extra standard action.
The extra move action is from Mythic Haste, which states "Affected creatures gain an additional move action each round".
What i'm asking is: Given that you can make a full attack in place of your turn's normal standard and a move actions, can you combine Amazing Initiative's standard action and Mythic Haste's move action in the same way?
(If the answer to the question is no, then that is fine, but I would prefer to keep the discussion to the parameters of the question. I am already well aware that haste does not grant you a standard action.)
Belafon |
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I know it’s a trite answer but “ask your GM.”
A full round action (including the full attack action) is NOT actually defined as combining a move action and a standard action. It is defined by
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a list of full-round actions.
and
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
So interpolation is required when using abilities that grant extra move and standard actions. The GM could easily say “you get one full-round action. There’s no rule allowing you to combine a standard and move to get another.” Or, “since a full-round takes the place of a standard and a move, you can get a second one that way.”
Mythic is bonkers already, so I would probably allow it (or at least try it out and see how it works in practice).
Greedeye |
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I know it’s a trite answer but “ask your GM.”
A full round action (including the full attack action) is NOT defined as combining a move action and a standard action. It is defined by
CRB page 181 wrote:A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a list of full-round actions.and
CRB page 187 wrote:A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.So interpolation is required when using abilities that grant extra move and standard actions. The GM could easily say “you get one full-round action. There’s no rule allowing you to combine a standard and move to get another.” Or, “since a full-round takes the place of a standard and a move, you can get a second one that way.”
Mythic is bonkers already, so I would probably allow it (or at least try it out and see how it works in practice).
Unfortunate that there is not more solid rules regarding this. I guess it will depend entirely on GM.
Although now you have quoted:
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
I'm wondering if by the RAW you could even use either one of the actions granted by amazing initiative or mythic haste at all if you have taken a full attack action already.
We had previously allowed players to full-attack using their normal actions and then take a standard action using amazing initiative, from this quote perhaps that was wrong.
Greedeye |
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Monk of the Four Winds ability Slow Time specifically says you can’t combine your extra standard actions into full attack actions, so yes, you do actually combine standard and move actions to make a full round action. So I say this is clear cut yes you can get an extra full round action this way.
Oh, that is interesting as well. Thank you.
Volkard Abendroth |
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Although now you have quoted:
CRB page 187 wrote:A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
Specific > General
The mythic abilities granting the extra actions are more specific than the general rules on action economy.
Thedmstrikes |
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D20PFSRD Haste wrote:The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
D20PRSRD Mythic Haste: wrote:Affected creatures gain an additional move action each round. The movement speed increase changes to 50 feet, to a maximum of three times the creature’s normal speed for that movement type.
Augmented (3rd): If you expend two uses of mythic power, the movement speed increase changes to 70 feet, with no limit based on the creature’s normal speed. If an affected creature moves at least 30 feet on its turn, it can travel across liquid as if the liquid were solid. If the liquid deals damage on contact, the creature takes only half damage from moving across it.
As I am unable to edit my original posting, so here is some additional data. I apologize for the misanswer I provided this morning, I was interrupted early on and had actually forgotten that I had not yet copied the additional data then came back to this and provided an answer based on what I had already copied. Sounds silly, but we all have our off days...
Amazing Initiative (Ex)
At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, as a free action on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power to take an additional standard action during that turn. This additional standard action can’t be used to cast a spell. You can’t gain an extra action in this way more than once per round.
I still get an answer of no. Amazing initiative provides for an additional standard action as a free action. While there is no limit on the number of free actions (other than what the DM decides is too much talking, or other arbitration), they are still separate and distinct things within the framework of a round. Couple this with AI specifically calling out that you cannot cast a spell with this additional standard action further reinforces that it is not a true standard action.
A full round action is a thing one can do as one of three options for a round (the other two being taking a standard action and a move action and the third is taking no actions at all). The two abilities above provide for a separate additional standard action and move action respectively but provide no such rule which allows them to be combined to form a full round action.I will stipulate that mythic haste does provide for a massive amount of movement if the free standard action from AI were to be used to move as that would be empowered by the spell as well since it does not differentiate where the movement comes from, only that all movement is augmented.
Mysterious Stranger |
Just because something can be split apart does not mean the components can be combined to create what was split apart. As far as I am aware of nowhere in the rules does it say that you can combine a move action with a standard action to get a full round action. If there is a rule that lets you combine actions it would probably the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
Volkard Abendroth |
Just because something can be split apart does not mean the components can be combined to create what was split apart. As far as I am aware of nowhere in the rules does it say that you can combine a move action with a standard action to get a full round action. If there is a rule that lets you combine actions it would probably the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
Nowhere in the rules does it state you cannot. The rules simply do not address having extra actions, because such a thing did not exist when the rules were written. The only precedent we have is the existing full-round action.
Greedeye |
Nowhere in the rules does it state you cannot. The rules simply do not address having extra actions, because such a thing did not exist when the rules were written. The only precedent we have is the existing full-round action.
And things like monk of the four winds which comes with the limitation that it's extra standard actions cant be combined to form full round actions, which could imply that normally multiple extra actions could be combined unless they had similar written stipulations.
So there's a possibility that the Mot4W ability is an exemption an unwritten precedent that you can normally combine actions.
Thedmstrikes |
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Just because something can be split apart does not mean the components can be combined to create what was split apart. As far as I am aware of nowhere in the rules does it say that you can combine a move action with a standard action to get a full round action. If there is a rule that lets you combine actions it would probably the exception to the rule, rather than the rule.
I understand your position, but you are not actually arguing against mine. I am stating that there is no actual splitting going on. There are three options, full round, standard and move (however, there is mention that you do not actually have to take both in the same round, at which point it is forfeited, but the option to choose remains), and no action. I am saying there is no splitting of actions to begin with.
willuwontu |
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Volkard Abendroth wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it state you cannot. The rules simply do not address having extra actions, because such a thing did not exist when the rules were written. The only precedent we have is the existing full-round action.And things like monk of the four winds which comes with the limitation that it's extra standard actions cant be combined to form full round actions, which could imply that normally multiple extra actions could be combined unless they had similar written stipulations.
So there's a possibility that the Mot4W ability is an exemption an unwritten precedent that you can normally combine actions.
To be fair, the line in the monk of the four winds looks to be referencing comboning the standard actions that you're given, not combining the standard action and a move action.
The real relevant line is this
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
Which seems to imply that you choose between a standard and move or a full round action, not convert a full round action into a move and standard. Unlike move which clearly states that you can take in place of a standard.
Reksew_Trebla |
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Greedeye wrote:Volkard Abendroth wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it state you cannot. The rules simply do not address having extra actions, because such a thing did not exist when the rules were written. The only precedent we have is the existing full-round action.And things like monk of the four winds which comes with the limitation that it's extra standard actions cant be combined to form full round actions, which could imply that normally multiple extra actions could be combined unless they had similar written stipulations.
So there's a possibility that the Mot4W ability is an exemption an unwritten precedent that you can normally combine actions.
To be fair, the line in the monk of the four winds looks to be referencing comboning the standard actions that you're given, not combining the standard action and a move action.
The real relevant line is this
Combat -> Action Types wrote:In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.Which seems to imply that you choose between a standard and move or a full round action, not convert a full round action into a move and standard. Unlike move which clearly states that you can take in place of a standard.
You just quoted how you can do a move action in place of a standard action, so Monk of the Four Winds was talking about combining move and standard actions.
Greedeye |
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you can do a move action in place of a standard action, so Monk of the Four Winds was talking about combining move and standard actions.
That is my understanding also.
Which seems to imply that as the Mot4W ability specifically has the limitation that its actions cant be combined, there is (an apparently unwritten) precedent that normally a move and a standard could be combined - provided the abilities that grant extra actions do not have the same stipulation Mot4W has.
King of Vrock |
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Unfortunately, Mythic Haste does nothing to augment the additional action granted by Amazing Initiative. While Mythic Haste grants you another move action during your normal turn and Amazing Initiative gives you a bonus standard action you can't combine the two to make a Full Round action. They are separate and distinct actions. To gain a second full action in your turn you'd need an ability like Dual Initiative.
--Vrock and Awe