Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Is the summoner's Act Together action proof that animal companions and familiars can't perform exploration activities independent of their respective masters?
Act Together (Secrets of Magic 53)
You and your eidolon act as one. Either you or your eidolon takes an action or activity using the same number of actions as Act Together, and the other takes a single action. This lets you each use separate exploration activities like Avoid Notice as you travel.
I for one have always felt that animal companions, familiars, and similar minions COULD perform exploration activities independent of their respective masters. Particularly for creatures such as familiars who are extremely limited in combat, it just didn't make sense to me for them to be extremely limited outside of combat as well. (After all, what's the point of having a minion that can't do anything?) So naturally, the text in the new Act Together action creates something of a big red flag for me.
I'm interested in hearing other peoples' views on the matter. Please discuss.
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I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote: I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
ACs and other minions have some limited use in combat I suppose, but if familiars are so prohibited, what's the point of ever having one? Can't do anything in combat. Can't do anything out of combat. Waste of a feat/class ability at that point if you ask me.
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Ravingdork wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
ACs and other minions have some limited use in combat I suppose, but if familiars are so prohibited, what's the point of ever having one? Can't do anything in combat. Can't do anything out of combat. Waste of a feat/class ability at that point if you ask me. Since it's something you can easily achieve with a dedication ( witch ), a class feat ( different classes ) or ancestry feat ( different ancestries ), I would not give them more power.
I mean, while it's true that familiars are not the best deal, it's also true they are cheap.
Having a familiar to have and extra infused batch of reagents or and extra focus spell per day ( or even using them to deliver touch spells ) seems enough for me. Eventually, they can pass you items ( scrolls or potions ).
If a class really invests in familiar the same as they do with an AC ( from 4 to 6 class feats out of 10 ), they'd be able to summon potent familiars ( feary drake, imp, etc... ) or eventually get more master abilities ( in that case, sharing them with the familiar master archetype would be really good to give every party member something extra ).
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Based on the above text, I would now allow the minion to use the same exploration activity as its master. Which is something I would never have considered previously.
HumbleGamer wrote: Ravingdork wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
ACs and other minions have some limited use in combat I suppose, but if familiars are so prohibited, what's the point of ever having one? Can't do anything in combat. Can't do anything out of combat. Waste of a feat/class ability at that point if you ask me. Since it's something you can easily achieve with a dedication ( witch ), a class feat ( different classes ) or ancestry feat ( different ancestries ), I would not give them more power.
I mean, while it's true that familiars are not the best deal, it's also true they are cheap.
Having a familiar to have and extra infused batch of reagents or and extra focus spell per day ( or even using them to deliver touch spells ) seems enough for me. Eventually, they can pass you items ( scrolls or potions ).
If a class really invests in familiar the same as they do with an AC ( from 4 to 6 class feats out of 10 ), they'd be able to summon potent familiars ( feary drake, imp, etc... ) or eventually get more master abilities ( in that case, sharing them with the familiar master archetype would be really good to give every party member something extra ). Cheap? It would take 1 of the few class feats or 1 of the even fewer ancestry feats. I am sure that you are willing to give up double strike (or another "useless' feat) to get it. The witch dedication is even worse since it uses a class feat AND locks you into a subpar set of archetype feats. Even for these forums, which are composed of the most fervent rose-colored glass fanatics, that is a stretch
There are quite a few ancestry feats that just get you one cantrip. Using an ancestry feat to get a familiar can get a caster a cantrip and another master ability. So it's relatively cheap.
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Let's see if I can come up with a good non-emotionally invested example.
If a motel says that they allow dogs as guests, that does not prove that they do not also allow cats.
So no, the explicit rules that allow Eidolon and Summoner to both use exploration activities does not remove the ambiguity of whether minion type characters can or cannot use exploration activities.
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@Gisher
Having a familiar does not grant you the ability to prepare cantrips or add cantrips to a spell repertoire. Without that ability from a class or dedication, you cannot take the Cantrip Connection familiar ability.
Garulo wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Ravingdork wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
ACs and other minions have some limited use in combat I suppose, but if familiars are so prohibited, what's the point of ever having one? Can't do anything in combat. Can't do anything out of combat. Waste of a feat/class ability at that point if you ask me. Since it's something you can easily achieve with a dedication ( witch ), a class feat ( different classes ) or ancestry feat ( different ancestries ), I would not give them more power.
I mean, while it's true that familiars are not the best deal, it's also true they are cheap.
Having a familiar to have and extra infused batch of reagents or and extra focus spell per day ( or even using them to deliver touch spells ) seems enough for me. Eventually, they can pass you items ( scrolls or potions ).
If a class really invests in familiar the same as they do with an AC ( from 4 to 6 class feats out of 10 ), they'd be able to summon potent familiars ( feary drake, imp, etc... ) or eventually get more master abilities ( in that case, sharing them with the familiar master archetype would be really good to give every party member something extra ). Cheap? It would take 1 of the few class feats or 1 of the even fewer ancestry feats. I am sure that you are willing to give up double strike (or another "useless' feat) to get it. The witch dedication is even worse since it uses a class feat AND locks you into a subpar set of archetype feats. Even for these forums, which are composed of the most fervent rose-colored glass fanatics, that is a stretch That's mostly because you are looking at feats as something meant to increase the character power rather than customize it.
I see that you "deliberately" stuck yourself reasoning with class feats and witch dedications that are just options, while the ancestry feat ( as well as adopted ancestry gnome + 1 ancestry feat, for example, allows you to get a familiar in a cheap and easy way).
Not to say that multi talented allows you to find ways not to be stuck with the witch dedication ( which is not meant to give you a strong familiar, but a weaker version meant to work as a spellbook too).
Leaving apart your approach which is 100% towards character power rather than customization.
Not saying it's a bad/good way to deal with a character,but that there's no stretch when it comes to list possibilities ( no fanatism there, so no need for harassment too).
I remember discussing this ambiguity previously. The conclusions from that discussion that I remember:
* Forcing a character to give their familiar commands every 6 seconds while outside of combat feels a bit silly when you try to describe it narratively.
* Requiring commands frequently makes some exploration-based encounters impossible. Specifically stealth, and chases or escapes.
* Allowing familiars to freely participate in exploration activities is quite a bit more powerful than characters who don't have familiars can accomplish. There are some mid to high level feats (such as Wary Skulker) that let you do one specific exploration activity while doing another one. This may be a deal-breaker for some tables and players.
Generally, in combat, most of a familiar's abilities are limited versions of things that are available as feats.
* Inherently having a familiar is fairly comparable to Untrained Improvisation aside from the limits of what a tiny creature (that may or may not be able to carry anything) is capable of doing.
* Spellcasting is a limited form of Quickened Casting. (Though bonus points for being able to get Bless, Bane, or Mage Armor targeted to the familiar.)
*Spell Delivery can sometimes be used in place of Reach Spell but only for touch range spells and only every other round (since you have to get your familiar back to your own space before using it again).
*Cantrip Connection is exactly half of Cantrip Expansion.
*Familiar Focus effectively gives you another focus point, but no new spell to go with it.
So to me it follows that the familiar ability Skilled should let the familiar use exploration activities based on that skill.
Though I will say that this:
The Raven Black wrote: I would now allow the minion to use the same exploration activity as its master. Is not a bad compromise. That is the minimum required that a player with a familiar would need in order to not feel that the familiar is more of a hindrance than a benefit when outside of a Familiar Satchel or Pet Cache.
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breithauptclan wrote: @Gisher
Having a familiar does not grant you the ability to prepare cantrips or add cantrips to a spell repertoire. Without that ability from a class or dedication, you cannot take the Cantrip Connection familiar ability.
That's why I included the phrase "a caster."
HumbleGamer wrote: Garulo wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Ravingdork wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: I never heard of anybody allowing either familiars or companions to take exploration activities, until now.
I'd probably allow AC to take the "follow the expert" action though, if required ( group trying to past next to a group of guards, for example ).
ACs and other minions have some limited use in combat I suppose, but if familiars are so prohibited, what's the point of ever having one? Can't do anything in combat. Can't do anything out of combat. Waste of a feat/class ability at that point if you ask me. Since it's something you can easily achieve with a dedication ( witch ), a class feat ( different classes ) or ancestry feat ( different ancestries ), I would not give them more power.
I mean, while it's true that familiars are not the best deal, it's also true they are cheap.
Having a familiar to have and extra infused batch of reagents or and extra focus spell per day ( or even using them to deliver touch spells ) seems enough for me. Eventually, they can pass you items ( scrolls or potions ).
If a class really invests in familiar the same as they do with an AC ( from 4 to 6 class feats out of 10 ), they'd be able to summon potent familiars ( feary drake, imp, etc... ) or eventually get more master abilities ( in that case, sharing them with the familiar master archetype would be really good to give every party member something extra ). Cheap? It would take 1 of the few class feats or 1 of the even fewer ancestry feats. I am sure that you are willing to give up double strike (or another "useless' feat) to get it. The witch dedication is even worse since it uses a class feat AND locks you into a subpar set of archetype feats. Even for these forums, which are composed of the most fervent rose-colored glass fanatics, that is a stretch That's mostly because you are looking at feats as something meant to increase the character power rather than customize it.
I see... If I understand your point of view. All feats are just icing on the cake of a PC. Feats do not "increase" the power of a character, rather they just "customize" it. That does help the free archetype question since giving characters free archetypes will not increase their power.
Seriously, the point was that getting a familiar is not "cheap" since it takes away from a limited resource. Not a discussion of value, rather a statement that getting a familiar is not cheap
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