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Trick Magic Item, for reference.
Does it require a specific rank to trigger a specific item or just the trained profession is enough
Trained is all that's required. A 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20 to succeed in activating a 10th level item, though.
They can activate Scrolls and Wands with Trick Magic Item but a non-Caster would be unable to Prepare a Staff.
There are no level requirements for activating Scrolls or Wands. A 1st level Caster can read a 10th level Scroll.
Staves get kind of weird, though. I'll leave that question for someone else to answer.
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Trained is all that's required. A 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20 to succeed in activating a 10th level item, though.
A Trained level 1 PC can have at best, a +7. With a nat 20 that's a 27, but the DC of a 10th level scroll is 39. They would still fail, just not crit fail.
You need to be at least level 4 to have a chance to succeed in activating a 10th level scroll while trained, since a 29 is still a crit fail.
Quick questions:
1) A character can activate items through trick magic items. Does it require a specific rank to trigger a specific item or just the trained profession is enough to even cast lvl 10 scrolls ( just an example )?
It doesn't require a specific rank, but remember that there's a check involved, and it costs you 1 action to attempt to trick the item. The higher your proficiency (and level) the easier it'll be to actually activate the item. There's also the issue of getting high-level items at low levels.
2) Would a character with a spellcasting dedication ( let's say wizard dedication for example ) be able to use scrolls/wands/staves just because part of the tradition or he has to be able to cast spells of a specific level?
For example, a lvl 2 fighter with wizard dedication could use a wand of magic missle lvl 1? A scroll of polar ray? A staff of fire ( he won't be able to add slots to it, I know, but what about for example given cantrips and flat bonuses? )
Regardless of whether it's for an archetype, a trick magic item user, or a full-on spellcaster, wands and scrolls don't require you to be able to cast a spell of a specific level to use it. It simply needs you to have the appropriate spell list, and spellcasting dedications go out of their way to say that they function as though you have a spellcasting feature for any and all cases where having one is required, so no issues there.
The staff I'm not 100% sure on. For the spellcasting dedication it's fairly clear: You can prepare staves based on your highest level spell slot, and you can only cast a spell from a staff if it's on your spell list and you are "able to cast spells of the appropriate level".
For magic item trickers... I'm not sure. I would say someone with trick magic item could try to trick it to cast cantrips, but I can definitely see the logic behind not allowing it.
3) If 2 gets a "yes", what about the spell DC? is it going to use the character DC, right?
From trick magic item:
"If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers."
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2) Yes
To cast a spell from a wand, it must be on your spell list. Because you’re the one casting the spell, use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell is of your tradition.
To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list. Because you’re the one Casting the Spell, use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell also gains the appropriate trait for your tradition (arcane, divine, occult, or primal).
Staves are different.
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level. Casting a Spell from a staff requires holding the staff (typically in one hand) and Activating the staff by Casting the Spell, which takes the spell’s normal number of actions.
3)
You gain the Cast a Spell activity. You can prepare two cantrips each day from your spellbook. You're trained in arcane spell attack rolls and spell DCs. Your key spellcasting ability for wizard archetype spells is Int, and they are arcane wizard spells.
Other dedications have the same wording.
4) There are no special requirements to repair magic items to my knowledge.
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I think the reason for referring to your list, not the tradition, is to account for characters who add spells normally outside of their tradition to their list. (Clerics adding deity spells, Oracles using Divine Access, Sorcerers using Crossblooded Evolution, Bards using Impossible Polymath, etc).
It has nothing to do with being limited to spells in your Repertoire (for spontaneous casters).
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Trained is all that's required. A 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20 to succeed in activating a 10th level item, though.A Trained level 1 PC can have at best, a +7. With a nat 20 that's a 27, but the DC of a 10th level scroll is 39.
The DC is only 27, hence why I said that a 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20.
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The DC is only 27, hence why I said that a 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20.Trained is all that's required. A 1st level PC would still need a Natural 20 to succeed in activating a 10th level item, though.A Trained level 1 PC can have at best, a +7. With a nat 20 that's a 27, but the DC of a 10th level scroll is 39.
I think I see the disconnect. I think you're talking about a 10th level item (DC 27), and Cordell Kintner (and my reading of the OP question) was thinking of a scroll of a 10th level spell, which is a 19th level item (DC 39).
I think the reason for referring to your list, not the tradition, is to account for characters who add spells normally outside of their tradition to their list. (Clerics adding deity spells, Oracles using Divine Access, Sorcerers using Crossblooded Evolution, Bards using Impossible Polymath, etc).
It has nothing to do with being limited to spells in your Repertoire (for spontaneous casters).
Makes sense ( at least for staves/spontaneous casters ).
Still a little strange to think that any character with cleric/druid dedication might be able to cast a regenerate just with the dedication feat itself though.
I understand that feeling, but I think it's important to note two things:
1. Gold is valuable2. Magic and magic items are common in Golarion
Like, it might be cool to think of magic as this special thing reserved for the caster classes, but there's also magic items, hirelings, etc. And all kinds of magic (arcane, primal, divine, and occult) are all over the world. It would be kind of odd for a party of adventurers that just so happens to not have a certain kind of caster has no way of getting access to that kind of magic when in reality they've got a ton of gold and could probably hire a priest, wizard, druid, etc. to travel with them and stay back during battle for a much lesser cost than the material components of being resurrected in the first place.
Or, alternatively, they can learn it themselves (dedication), and drop the cash (for a wand or scroll), to not have to jump through those kinds of hoops.
That's the way I see it, anyway.
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I have asked before for clarification on what exactly is 'on your spell list'. That isn't actually very well defined in the rules.
Are uncommon and rare spells in your tradition that you haven't learned? Probably not.
How about common spells in your tradition that are too high of a level for you to learn right now? Consensus on the forums is yes, but I have reservations about that.
My general rule of thumb that I use is: any spell that you have learned, and any common spell on your tradition list. Those are the spells 'on your spell list'.
So if casting from high level wands and scrolls with only a MCD dedication feat seems too powerful, restrict 'your spell list' a bit to: spells you have learned, and common spells of your tradition of a level no higher than your highest spell slot level. That will cap the power of wands and scrolls to your caster's power level.
For the record, I don't think spells you have learned / can use are automatically put on your spell list. Certain features go out of their way to say that something outside of your tradition counts as being "on your spell list" or is "added to your spell list", but other than that your spell list is the list of spells you pull from for a spellcasting feature, whether you got it from your class or from a dedication.
Examples of references to a character's spell list (Don't take my word for it. Try Ctrl F on these pages. It's not really referenced that often):
Choose a bloodline that gives you your spellcasting talent. This choice determines the type of spells you cast and the spell list you choose them from, additional spells you learn, and additional trained skills. You also gain Focus Points and special focus spells based on your bloodline. The bloodlines presented in this book are as follows.
You cast spells like a sorcerer. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity. You gain a spell repertoire with two common cantrips from the spell list associated with your bloodline, from the spells granted by your bloodline, or any other cantrips of that tradition you learn or discover. You're trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your tradition's spells. Your key spellcasting ability for sorcerer archetype spells is Charisma, and they are sorcerer spells of your bloodline's tradition. You don't gain any other abilities from your choice of bloodline.
Your deity also adds spells to your spell list. You can prepare these just like you can any spell on the divine spell list, once you can prepare spells of their level as a cleric. Some of these spells aren't normally on the divine list, but they're divine spells if you prepare them this way.
Your deity bestows on you the power to cast divine spells. You can cast divine spells using the Cast a Spell activity, and you can supply material, somatic, and verbal components when casting spells (see Casting Spells). Because you're a cleric, you can usually hold a divine focus (such as a religious symbol) for spells requiring material components instead of needing to use a material component pouch. At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book or from other divine spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.
Every arcane spell has a written version, usually recorded in a spellbook. You start with a spellbook worth 10 sp or less, which you receive for free and must study to prepare your spells each day. The spellbook contains your choice of 10 arcane cantrips and five 1st-level arcane spells. You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list from this book or from other arcane spells you gain access to. Your spellbook's form and name are up to you. It might be a musty, leather-bound tome or an assortment of thin metal disks connected to a brass ring; its name might be esoteric, like The Crimson Libram, or something more academic, like A Field Study in Practical Transmutation.
And so on, and so forth for the other caster classes and dedications.
There are arguments on the other side of my opinion, of course, but all of the ones I've heard involve assuming that there's some knowledge outside of what's presented by the book about what a spell list is, and by extension what an individual's spell list is. However, if we just look at what the book has to say on the matter, the only references I can find to spell lists AT ALL is regarding one of the following:a) A tradition's spell list [the arcane, primal, occult, and / or divine spell lists]
b) "Your" spell list, notably with NO definition given
c) Adding things to a spell list or saying that a spell counts as being on a spell list
The question is about what does b) means when it comes up, and as far as I can tell there are only two possible answers to this:
1. There is no definition in the book, and therefore anything we make up is equally as valid as anything else. This is where we're apparently supposed to fill in the gaps and make up rules that are never hinted at.
Or 2. The book has a definition of a spell list (the one related to a tradition, and usually limited to common spells) and assumes we know that a spellcaster's spell list is the one that they prepare spells from, i.e. the one from their tradition. This is also in line with the idea that a cleric adding spells to "their list" allows them to prepare them like any other spell assuming they have the spell slots for it.
I'd also like to point out that the spells from one's deity are added to your list at level 1, since that's when you gain the Deity feature. You can't cast ones higher than 1st level with spell slots yet, since you don't have the spell slots for it, but they are already on your list. No question about that part.
That's not to say that it's a bad idea to limit wands to spells you can cast. I think that's a perfectly reasonable homebrew that I just happen to not use. In fact, I think more people should feel comfortable implementing little homebrew rules like that. In my experience it's much healthier for the table to just say "I think it works better and is more fun this way, so that's the way that it works at my table" than it is to try and convince someone that something is a reasonable interpretation of RAW if they don't think that it is, especially for a seemingly contentious topic.
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While it may not be written expressly, it seems pretty straight forward what a caster's 'spell list' is.
Spell List - All spells listed under the specific tradition(s) they have gained access (via class, dedication, or other) plus any specific spells that have been added to their List (via class, dedication, or other).
the only references I can find to spell lists AT ALL is regarding one of the following:
a) A tradition's spell list [the arcane, primal, occult, and / or divine spell lists]
b) "Your" spell list, notably with NO definition given
c) Adding things to a spell list or saying that a spell counts as being on a spell listThe question is about what does b) means when it comes up, and as far as I can tell there are only two possible answers to this:
1. There is no definition in the book, and therefore anything we make up is equally as valid as anything else. This is where we're apparently supposed to fill in the gaps and make up rules that are never hinted at.
Or 2. The book has a definition of a spell list (the one related to a tradition, and usually limited to common spells) and assumes we know that a spellcaster's spell list is the one that they prepare spells from, i.e. the one from their tradition. This is also in line with the idea that a cleric adding spells to "their list" allows them to prepare them like any other spell assuming they have the spell slots for it.
Clarification request: What does answer #2 actually mean?
What I am reading that as is that 'your' spell list is always equal to the tradition spell list unless something like Cleric's Deity class feature adds a spell to 'your' spell list.
But that seems really unjust since some classes that can get access to off-list spells don't specifically mention adding them to 'your' spell list. Cleric Deity does. Witch Lesson feats don't. Oracle Divine Access does. Bard's Impossible Polymath doesn't.
Which of those are intentional and which are oversight? And why the unfair treatment?
the only references I can find to spell lists AT ALL is regarding one of the following:
a) A tradition's spell list [the arcane, primal, occult, and / or divine spell lists]
b) "Your" spell list, notably with NO definition given
c) Adding things to a spell list or saying that a spell counts as being on a spell listThe question is about what does b) means when it comes up, and as far as I can tell there are only two possible answers to this:
1. There is no definition in the book, and therefore anything we make up is equally as valid as anything else. This is where we're apparently supposed to fill in the gaps and make up rules that are never hinted at.
Or 2. The book has a definition of a spell list (the one related to a tradition, and usually limited to common spells) and assumes we know that a spellcaster's spell list is the one that they prepare spells from, i.e. the one from their tradition. This is also in line with the idea that a cleric adding spells to "their list" allows them to prepare them like any other spell assuming they have the spell slots for it.Clarification request: What does answer #2 actually mean?
What I am reading that as is that 'your' spell list is always equal to the tradition spell list unless something like Cleric's Deity class feature adds a spell to 'your' spell list.
But that seems really unjust since some classes that can get access to off-list spells don't specifically mention adding them to 'your' spell list. Cleric Deity does. Witch Lesson feats don't. Oracle Divine Access does. Bard's Impossible Polymath doesn't.
Which of those are intentional and which are oversight? And why the unfair treatment?
The reason why it's not mentioned is because the game doesn't really mention spell lists much. As mentioned previously, they seem to assume that they don't really need to define it (something that I personally disagree with, even if I think I understand what they mean). Basically, the way I see it, if you're adding to the things that you can prepare / put in your repertoire, then you're adding it to your list. The things that don't add to your list but give you the ability to cast spells are things like features that give you focus spells, ancestry feats that give you once per day spells, and... idk, there's probably others. Those are what come to mind.
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Well, the rules mention your personal spell list quite a bit when restricting what your character can do. But it doesn't really define how to determine what spells are on your list.
The reason I ask is because a restrictive RAW would have a primal or divine Witch who takes Lesson of Protection in order to cast Mage Armor have to use a spell slot to cast it each day instead of being able to get a wand with the spell and cast it from that. And that just seems unfairly punishing.
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Well, the rules mention your personal spell list quite a bit when restricting what your character can do. But it doesn't really define how to determine what spells are on your list.
The reason I ask is because a restrictive RAW would have a primal or divine Witch who takes Lesson of Protection in order to cast Mage Armor have to use a spell slot to cast it each day instead of being able to get a wand with the spell and cast it from that. And that just seems unfairly punishing.
Thing is, 'a restrictive RAW' wouldn't come to that conclusion because, as you stated, 'is doesn't really define'.
RAW has very little bearing because there is neither a definition nor a tangential one.
Honestly, it seems that this is almost completely in the realm of RAI.
Thing is, 'a restrictive RAW' wouldn't come to that conclusion because, as you stated, 'is doesn't really define'.
... Actually, that's a fair point. 'restrictive ruling' would be a more accurate description.
People could argue that the restrictive ruling is RAW because since the Lesson feat doesn't say that it adds the spell to your spell list - while other similar feats do explicitly say that they do add the spell to your spell list - then Lesson feats don't. The omission is significant to the rule.