Recently had a game in which one of my players wanted to Shove an ally who had been grappled by a black pudding's Grab attack. At the time I ruled that it wouldn't work (in no small part because the player was talking about pulling the victim away rather than shoving--the positioning just wasn't going to work). However, I thought I'd dig into it a little more thoroughly.
Is it really so easy to break a grapple as having an ally Shove you out of it? What if you (the victim) were adjacent to the grappler, said grappler had reach, and your ally failed to Shove you out of said reach's range?
I'm curious to see how others would have handled it, and how they interpret the rules regarding such a maneuver.
The rule is in the immobilized condition
If you're immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in place or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place.
From the immobilized condition (one of the two conditions inflicted via Grapple action and the Grab ability):
"If you're immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in place or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place."
So if they can overcome the Athletics DC of the Grab/Grapple or the Fortitude DC of the creature, it's all good. If not, they don't move.
Oozes have tremendous Fort saves...
But yeah, one could try this if your ally doesn't have a good Escape ability and you have a solid Athletics, though I'd recommend killing the enemy instead.
Immobilized is not Grabbed though...
But nothing says the Grabbed condition is broken or otherwise removed.
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But nothing says the Grabbed condition is broken or otherwise removed.
The escape action says you get to remove all three at once.
No it doesn't say that in the Force Open action or the Immobilised condition.
Common sense I guess. You have broken the grip that caused the immobility, that same grip also caused the grab.
But nothing says the Grabbed condition is broken or otherwise removed.The escape action says you get to remove all three at once.
Why is the Escape action relevant? That's not what's happening here. Shove is what is happening here.
Why is the Escape action relevant? That's not what's happening here. Shove is what is happening here.But nothing says the Grabbed condition is broken or otherwise removed.The escape action says you get to remove all three at once.
Common sense, as Gortle said.
And if you don't like common sense, then by RAW you can shove the ooze itself. The grapple action says the target is grabbed until you moved, and doesn't specify forced movement or not.
It winds up at the same DC either way. One is shoving the ooze off the PC, the other is shoving the PC off the ooze.
Edit: In fact, on the Black Pudding it is the same DC as Escape, too. It has the same fort DC as its athletics DC. So there's plenty of support for using athletics to break an ally out of a grapple here, and frankly I'd have allowed it to be done as a pull rather than than a straight shove myself. In general these sorts of adhoc actions are really easy to adjucate with how consistent the math of the game is.
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@Gortle @Captain Morgan
Where does it say in the CRB that a shove breaks a grapple?
Correct me if I'm wrong (with a rules reference) but as far as I understand it - the breaking a grapple via shove is indirect. The grapple is broken if the grappler no longer has reach to grapple the character.
The way I see it
The Black Pudding is Large and has Reach 10 feet and a Fort Save of 18 for a DC of 28.
You can shove the monster or the character. But to break the grapple you have to shove far enough to get the character you want to save out of reach.
I use a coordinate system like rows and columns in Excel. I place the Black Pudding in C3/C3/D3/D4 and the Character in D5. So the character is South of the Black Pudding.
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXBBXX
XXBBXX
XXXCXX
XXXXXX
X is an empty square
B is the Black Pudding
C is the character
I need to get C 15 feet away from B (outside reach) to break the grapple.
Shove Single Action
Attack
Source Core Rulebook pg. 243 2.0
Requirements You have at least one hand free. The target can’t be more than one size larger than you.
You push a creature away from you. Attempt an Athletics check against your target's Fortitude DC.Critical Success You push your target up to 10 feet away from you. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Success You push your target back 5 feet. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Critical Failure You lose your balance, fall, and land prone.
There are only three directions I can shove C. West (if I'm East of C), East (if I'm West of C) or SW (if I'm NE of C).
No matter how you slice or dice it - I need to shove C 15 feet which can't be done with a single shove to get him out of the grapple. The only direction that would allow a 10 feet shove would be South - but this would mean the person doing the Shove is inside the Black Pudding.
So the best option I can see by RAW is:
Action 1: Start NE - shove SW (DC28) - stride after it
Action 2: On success or critical success of action 1 shove again SW (DC28 but at -5 MAP)
The only way I can see break the grapple in a single action is:
Action 1: Start E of C, Shove the Black Pudding North needing a critical success (DC28+10 for a DC38)
Shove works a lot easier on
1) a character not adjacent to the grappler
2) a grappler with only 5-foot reach
3) a medium/small grappler
So yes - shove can be powerful to break a grapple - but can be difficult if the grappler is large and might become impossible if there are walls etc. around that prevent free maneuver (dead end corridor for example).
Edit:As a GM I would be happy to also allow a pull action with an Athletics Check and the same DC. But strictly RAW (I know how Ravingdork posts here) there is no pull action I'm aware off.
Thod is following my original line of thought pretty well.
During the game I (1) wasn't able to find the rule that said Shoving someone out of reach broke the Grabbed condition, (2) did not see how they would get the victim out of reach short of repositioning and crit succeeding even if I did find such a rule, and (3) I did not want to open the can of worms of a new "pull" combat maneuver which could prove unbalanced if repeated later; so I ruled against the player in this instance. They opted to aid the victim in an Escape attempt instead.
My players showed me the Immobilized text at the time too.
The breaking a grapple via shove is indirect. The grapple is broken if the grappler no longer has reach to grapple the character.
The Black Pudding is Large and has Reach 10 feet and a Fort Save of 18 for a DC of 28.
A very good point. I never considered reach. Huh...
So yeah, either a crit success or two successes would probably be necessary assuming the player and the Black Pudding were adjacent to each other. For all we know they could've already been 10ft away. The description didn't mention distances.
The breaking a grapple via shove is indirect. The grapple is broken if the grappler no longer has reach to grapple the character.
The Black Pudding is Large and has Reach 10 feet and a Fort Save of 18 for a DC of 28.
A very good point. I never considered reach. Huh...
So yeah, either a crit success or two successes would probably be necessary assuming the player and the Black Pudding were adjacent to each other. For all we know they could've already been 10ft away. The description didn't mention distances.
The victim was adjacent at the time.
That was another reason I stuck to my ruling; I knew the victim had better chances of escape if they assisted for Escape than if they shot for the moon with a crit success.
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Why is the Escape action relevant? That's not what's happening here. Shove is what is happening here.But nothing says the Grabbed condition is broken or otherwise removed.The escape action says you get to remove all three at once.
More completely then:
The Grapple actions says Success Your target is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes
So to end it you can
a) Escape with Athletics/Acrobatics/Unarmed attack modifier versus the Athletics DC of the Grabber
b) Shove the Grabber (any distance at all - reach is irrelevant) which is an Athletics check against the Grabber's Fortitude DC
c) Move the Grabbed target - this is totally GM improvisation as there is no defined method for it. However this is exactly what GMs are encouraged to do - improvise when the players go outside the bounds. I guess your discussion about reach fits in here. However the framework of the rules says this comes under counteracting The relevant check is a Shove attempt ie Athletics check against the Grabbers Athletics DC. As that is the force holding the grabbed target in place.
d) Other forced movement would work. Example Leading Dance would work on the Grabber but not the Grabbed. It targets Will DC so pretty nice.
The black pudding uses the Grab ability rather than the Grapple action, but Grab also says "the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it," so the result is the same for Shoving the ooze. Based on the immobilized condition's wording, I think it's more than fair to allow a Shove (or Athletics check) that's attempting to move a grabbed target to roll against the grabbing creature's DC and break the Grab on a success.
A creature moving away is not the same as the victim moving away, but I agree that, that would be a reasonable GM ruling.