Mindflayer statblock — Comments and Advice?

[Luke Styer]

Here’s a Mindflayer statblock I put together for my campaign. The PCs will encounter it in a couple weeks, so I figured I have time to solicit comments and advice.

The clawed gauntlet attack is because I’m using the Nolzur’s mini that has a Freddy Kruger glove, so I figured I’d reflect that.

[HumbleGamer]

Extract brain is supposed to suffer from the MAP since it involves an attack, isn't it?

I would make it even deadlier giving it the Mind blast reset on a kill.

Btw, really good job.

[Luke Styer]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Extract brain is supposed to suffer from the MAP since it involves an attack, isn't it?

Yes. My intent was that the Mind Flayer would have to either suffer MAP to extract in same turn that it grabs the PC or risk the PC getting free by waiting until a new turn. M

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I would make it even deadlier giving it the Mind blast reset on a kill.

I like that. Can you recall off hand a monster that works similarly so that I can model the wording?

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Btw, really good job.

Thank you!

[HumbleGamer]

Luke Styer wrote:

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I would make it even deadlier giving it the Mind blast reset on a kill.

I like that. Can you recall off hand a monster that works similarly so that I can model the wording?

I didn't read the whole bestiary, and I am not sure there's something like that.

I was just thinking about the Draconic Momentum perk

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The dragon recharges its Breath Weapon whenever it scores a critical hit with a Strike.

but talking about a mind flyer, I felt that the trigger could have been more pertinent with the creature.

For example, consuming a brain could have gave the mind flyer a burst of power.

...

Also, since we are talking about Extract Brain, did you also considered the "resurrect" requirements?

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You attempt to call forth the target’s soul and return it to its body. This requires the target’s body to be present and relatively intact. The target must have died within the past year. If Pharasma has decided that the target’s time has come or the target doesn’t wish to return, this ritual automatically fails, but you discover this after the successful Religion check and can end the ritual without paying the cost.

I mean, do you think that having the brain extracted, and then devoured, would lead the spell to a failure?

[Luke Styer]

HumbleGamer wrote:

I was just thinking about the Draconic Momentum perk

That’s enough to point me in a direction to look.

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For example, consuming a brain could have gave the mind flyer a burst of power.

That’s thematically on-point. Mind Flayers “traditionally” gain knowledge when they devour a brain, but that’s difficult to model, but this gives the idea some concrete mechanical benefit.

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I mean, do you think that having the brain extracted, and then devoured, would lead the spell to a failure?

No, because at the level I’m designing for (6) no one is getting resurrected anyway. But even still, I probably wouldn’t go that route for a higher level Mind Flayer, either.

[Castilliano]

I think there's a monster than can make Recall Knowledge checks using its victim's stats. That, languages, and "basic data" (which might give a bonus) might be enough to mirror mind-eating.

I'd likely run the Extract Brain like a Constrict, using a basic save. I might add Stupefied in for those that fail (or maybe just critically fail).
And I'd lean toward Improved Grab since it's iconic that Mind Flayers always grab when they hit w/ their tentacles.

Notorious for high magic resistance I'd give them a +2 Status bonus vs. magic (much like PF2 Ropers and Rakshasa). That might require moving their base saves down one; I'm not sure what weight Paizo gave this when transferring creatures over.

I'd add Linguistic trait to Telepathic Caster.

The skills seem a bit flat as do the stats which also seem off. I don't recall Mind Flayers being so strong (even though their grasp is and might need a boost of some sort). I'd bump their Occult to bizarre levels (given their history) and maybe revisit 3.X to see what kind of stats they had (not that it'll make much difference on the final result given PF2 building rules!)

There's another conversion from around maybe a year ago in these forums.

[Luke Styer]

Castilliano wrote:

I think there's a monster than can make Recall Knowledge checks using its victim's stats. That, languages, and "basic data" (which might give a bonus) might be enough to mirror mind-eating.

I hadn’t noticed one, but that’s worth looking for.

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I'd likely run the Extract Brain like a Constrict, using a basic save. I might add Stupefied in for those that fail (or maybe just critically fail).

And I'd lean toward Improved Grab since it's iconic that Mind Flayers always grab when they hit w/ their tentacles.

I’ve toyed a little with the idea of a save rather than an attack, which would bring Hero Points into play, but Improved Grab would mitigate that because it would allow two attempts in the initial round.

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Notorious for high magic resistance I'd give them a +2 Status bonus vs. magic (much like PF2 Ropers and Rakshasa). That might require moving their base saves down one; I'm not sure what weight Paizo gave this when transferring creatures over.

That’s a good point. At least a +1 is probably in order.

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I'd add Linguistic trait to Telepathic Caster.

Between constant Tongues and telepathy, I’m not sure I see the practical effect of that.

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The skills seem a bit flat as do the stats which also seem off.

I just used the default stat array for the 7th level Magical Striker roadmap and then picked a few skills and applied the hint.

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I don't recall Mind Flayers being so strong (even though their grasp is and might need a boost of some sort).

That’s literally the Moderate value for 7th level, but the ability score and the Athletics score aren’t really linked on a monster.

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I'd bump their Occult to bizarre levels (given their history)

That’s a very good suggestion.

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There's another conversion from around maybe a year ago in these forums.

I’ll take a look.

Thanks!

[Frostgoblin]

I don't have enough confidence in my monster building skills to help mechanically, so I am going to point towards official monsters of similar design as inspiration, one monster that might interest you is the Brain Collector which fulfills a similar niche as an "alien brain eating aberration" (it even has a level 8, pretty close to your mindflayer) they are proficient in ALL lores and take heavy mental penalties when they lose brains, for the flavor of a "memory consuming monster that form organized groups and can turn you into more of their own" I would recommend looking into the Leng Ghoul, which has an ability to eat a bit of a corpse and getting some bonuses AND a check to see some of the memories of the person when they where alive, while neither of these creatures fully fulfill the role of a mindflayer, they should be good inspiration to capture both of these core flavors of the mindflayer.

[Luke Styer]

Frostgoblin wrote:

I don't have enough confidence in my monster building skills to help mechanically, so I am going to point towards official monsters of similar design as inspiration,

If you have mechanical thoughts, please feel free to share them, but those pointers should be a big help, so I appreciate them, too!

[Frostgoblin]

Luke Styer wrote:

Frostgoblin wrote:

I don't have enough confidence in my monster building skills to help mechanically, so I am going to point towards official monsters of similar design as inspiration,

If you have mechanical thoughts, please feel free to share them, but those pointers should be a big help, so I appreciate them, too!

OK I am back and after looking at your mindflayer's Stat block more carefully, I felt like something was off about it (also the spell DC apear as "0," you should get that fixed), so I opened the Archives of Nethys and gave a look at other monsters of the same level, then looked at the official creature building guidelines and checked the level 7 numbers, and I found out what was off (beware wall of text):

The stats are too flat, with the mental aspects being too low and physical ones being too high, let me elaborate a bit.

When looking at the level 7 part of the tables to build creatures it seems that your converted mindflayer has most of the stats range from moderate to low, and this should not be the case, if I am not wrong the illithids are at their most basic, classic speciallized squishy spellcasters, using their minds and powers rather than their bodies, they have mind control to deal with physical tasks.

For example skills: for a level 7 creature an extreme skill modifier is +20, high is +17, moderate is +15, and low is between +13 and +11, for your mindflayer, I recommend to make occultism between estreme and high, the social skills between high and moderate (but always lower than occultism), stealth as either moderate or low and remove athletics.

For ability scores it is basically the same, for a level 7 creature an ability score modifier of +7 is extreme, +6 is high, moderate is +4 and low is +2,for your mindflayer you should bump up the intelligence to either high or extreme, wisdom should be moderate, leave charisma as is, increase dexterity to moderate and put constitution and strengh in low.

The rest seems to be good enough for what you are you are trying to accomplish, although the attacks need to list the modifiers used when attacking with Multi Attack Penalty at - 5 and - 10, that is missing and can save quite the headache with calculations on the heat of combat.

Edit: sorry if I end up sounding too aggressive or something, those numbers where bothering me more than they should, maybe it is because I watched Ilithid lore videos (and read The Monster Knows What They Are Doing) a bit too much in the past.

[Castilliano]

I think the Mind Flayer needs Athletics to prevent easy Escape.
One way to get around these spindly creatures having good Athletics is to give a bonus when grabbing, i.e. Athletics +11 (+17 w/ grapple).

Stats I'd go with Str +2, Dex +4 & make their tentacles finesse (though yes, this changes very little)
I'd make Int superhuman, +5 or higher, and maybe Wis & Cha too, though again, that doesn't necessarily change much else.
So maybe Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4*, Int +5, Wis +2, Cha +4
*Also not sure about this. For spindly folk they had a lot of hit dice and I'm not certain the narrative reasons for that.

The reason to add Linguistic to the Telepathic Caster is so the Suggestion spell can be silent. Minor, yet it seems to fit the whole point of having the ability at all.

For skills I'd loosely recommend:
Athletics +11 (+17 w/ grapple), Deception +15, Diplomacy +13, Intimidation +17, Occultism +18, Stealth +13
Part of that is I think most of their interactions with other species are based on sowing fear, then lying, then as a last resort, negotiating. I have a nagging feeling that some other skill(s) might be called for, even if just a Lore or two. Maybe Arcana?

I stand by Improved Grab because I think the grab should be automatic, and the brain eating should start ASAP IMO, even if the Mind Flayer had to move. One could alter the damage if needed if that feels too lethal, but I do like the thought that after one encounter players will be very wary of approaching the Mind Flayer's tentacles!

In Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms I'd have them Uncommon, though yes, Rare on Golarion!

[Tarondor]

I did my own version of a mind-flayer (and a beholder) in my conversion of Tarondor's Pathfinder 2e Conversion of Monte Cook’s The Banewarrens and Night of Dissolution

They're called "Yuinthu" (the mind-flayer) and "Charch-Pahn" (the beholder). You can find them in the creatures appendix.

[Elorebaen]

Tarondor wrote:

I did my own version of a mind-flayer (and a beholder) in my conversion of Tarondor's Pathfinder 2e Conversion of Monte Cook’s The Banewarrens and Night of Dissolution

They're called "Yuinthu" (the mind-flayer) and "Charch-Pahn" (the beholder). You can find them in the creatures appendix.

Thank you for sharing! Ptolus has been on my mind lately :)