The distinction between the two is made several times in the rules, like the Subsist activity, but there's nothing suggesting I can find defining a penalty for simply existing at subsistence. A failed Subsist roll inflicts Fatigued, by contrast. I ask because I plan on adding one for a subsystem I'm making and don't want to step on a rule I missed.
I'm converting a PF1 AP that involves keeping 20-30 refugees alive in the woods. Being a PF1 subsystem, it is overly fiddly and I'm hoping to streamline it to involve using a Comfort Points system to represent morale, safety, shelter, and how well fed the group is. So comfortable living would obviously be better than subsistence for those purposes.
I'm not aware of any penlaty for "just" subsisting, other than the fact that it actually requires a check.
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I'm converting a PF1 AP that involves keeping 20-30 refugees alive in the woods. Being a PF1 subsystem, it is overly fiddly and I'm hoping to streamline it to involve using a Comfort Points system to represent morale, safety, shelter, and how well fed the group is. So comfortable living would obviously be better than subsistence for those purposes.
I have nothing to add as far as the rules are concerned, but I would be interested in seeing what subsystem you come up ^_^
I'll be GMing a "pirate" Campaign this summer and plan on marooning the crew on an island after a shipwreck. Inserting survival into their exploration while the NPCs repair the ship could shake things up a bit.
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The downside to Subsisting is that it takes 8 hours and counts as the downtime activity for the day. It's cheap in terms of money, but expensive in terms of time, and comes with the fatigue risk you pointed out.
Without feat support, greater skill in survival, and multiple characters performing successful feat-supported Survival rolls, you would not be able to support a large group of refugees in a forest at even a subsistence level without additional supplies.
You'd have to build in other ways to acquire food, like facing a hive of bees to acquire honey or hunting down a boar. Maybe building a ladder or raft to get to a bountiful site. This also suits the adventure building rule of thumb of having multiple paths to solve each obstacle.
With lots of refugees, these tasks would have to come in larger form, like abandoned orchards or dried food stashes, maybe a particular nourishing (and violent) beast.
The downside to Subsisting is that it takes 8 hours and counts as the downtime activity for the day. It's cheap in terms of money, but expensive in terms of time, and comes with the fatigue risk you pointed out.
Actually, you CAN do it during a standard adventuring day, but you take a -5 penalty. Which sounds rough, until you realize the DC to support yourself in a forest is only 10, so you can do it automatically at level 1 with Assurance. And of course Forager really blows up your ability to feed people.
Without feat support, greater skill in survival, and multiple characters performing successful feat-supported Survival rolls, you would not be able to support a large group of refugees in a forest at even a subsistence level without additional supplies.
Indeed, but luckily the AP throws "provision points" at the group so you aren't strictly relying on Survival rolls. And taking feats like Forager just become really obvious picks in these scenarios. (And to be honest, any time something as niche as a skill feat can get time to shine, it is a good thing in my book.)
Even then, it is going to be difficult for it to be long term sustainable... Which is kind of the point. The AP really wants players to search for permanent solutions/shelter rather than just keep living off the land. One of the big problems with it as written is you can optimize your NPCs with various jobs that basically makes the camp feed itself, at which point there's very little pressure to find a home.
You'd have to build in other ways to acquire food, like facing a hive of bees to acquire honey or hunting down a boar. Maybe building a ladder or raft to get to a bountiful site. This also suits the adventure building rule of thumb of having multiple paths to solve each obstacle.
With lots of refugees, these tasks would have to come in larger form, like abandoned orchards or dried food stashes, maybe a particular nourishing (and violent) beast.
Lawlz, your examples are almost exactly the things used in the adventure. I'd say you must have read it but they are JUST different enough to where it could be a coincidence.
Lawlz, your examples are almost exactly the things used in the adventure. I'd say you must have read it but they are JUST different enough to where it could be a coincidence.You'd have to build in other ways to acquire food, like facing a hive of bees to acquire honey or hunting down a boar. Maybe building a ladder or raft to get to a bountiful site. This also suits the adventure building rule of thumb of having multiple paths to solve each obstacle.
With lots of refugees, these tasks would have to come in larger form, like abandoned orchards or dried food stashes, maybe a particular nourishing (and violent) beast.
I haven't read one w/ so many refugees, but I am familiar with adventure building and Paizo's style. :)
ETA: And Nefreet's style. I may have to hide my eyes for spoilers in case I finagle a spot at his pirates table! :P
DOT
So the basic idea is that the refugees have a pool of Morale Points, probably based on the number of people in the group. (Maybe starting at the size of the group?) Morale is generally drained by 1 for every night people go without shelter, and 1 for every day they go without adequate food. This is cumulative, so when the group lacks adequate food and shelter they lose 2 points a day. It can also be drained when refugees get sick, injured, or killed. 1 Morale point is gained every 24 hours with adequate food and shelter. They can also be gained for achieving victories or adding new friends and allies to the group.
The Subsist activity will basically work as written, with a few minor changes. Providing a subsistence living is basically defined as having food OR shelter, and comfortable living will be both. So provision points can be used to supplement the food and tents can be used to supplement the shelter, effectively making a success into a critical success. Temporary shelters can be made as part of the Subsist check, but they will only last until the party moves camp again. Tents provide reusable cover, but building them will require Craft checks. I may just use the Earn income table to determine how quickly they are made (I don't care for the 4 day rule) so a level 2 character will make 3sp of progress a day on a success, which means it would take about two and a half days to make a pup tent.
The PF1 version assumes each NPC can be assigned a job they will roll for each day. It also uses the NPC classes and occasionally hands out "Promotions" that can be used to level up individual NPCs. I'll be darned if I have 25 NPC dice rolls every day again, so instead I am looking for simpler ways to measure their contributions. I'm dabbling with the idea that rolls are generally only made by player characters, but NPCs can be assigned to assist with those PCs. I'm contemplating each NPC providing a flat cumulative +1 bonus. Options for promoted PCs include letting them add bigger bonuses, roll themselves, or automatically succeed at basic checks.
And like any victory point system, crossing different thresholds will allow for different effects. One of the harder parts is coming up with boons for the refugees to provide so the PCs feel rewarded for doing so-- cash rewards aren't as useful in the wilderness.
I'd also like to come up with a few examples of tasks the PCs can utilize, probably drawing from a the hexploration rules, downtime rules, and exploration tactics.
This is the rough idea, and I've got a couple weeks to try and cement it.
The PF1 version assumes each NPC can be assigned a job they will roll for each day. It also uses the NPC classes and occasionally hands out "Promotions" that can be used to level up individual NPCs. I'll be darned if I have 25 NPC dice rolls every day again, so instead I am looking for simpler ways to measure their contributions. I'm dabbling with the idea that rolls are generally only made by player characters, but NPCs can be assigned to assist with those PCs. I'm contemplating each NPC providing a flat cumulative +1 bonus. Options for promoted PCs include letting them add bigger bonuses, roll themselves, or automatically succeed at basic checks.
I would create 'squads' of NPCs - similar to the 'troop' idea for enemies. So a squad of NPCs can be created and will have a CR rating equal to the number of NPCs in the squad (or some other math equation that gets a satisfactory CR number). Then roll the check for the squad character.
That gives the players the ability to tailor their NPCs work as they see fit. Several smaller squads with a lower bonus each assigned to different tasks, or fewer larger squads with a higher bonus but less work getting done overall.
It also means less game mechanics work and rolling. 12 NPCs don't have to all roll individually. 3 squads of 4 NPCs each is much easier to manage.
That can also include the idea of Promoted NPCs. Each squad has to have an NPC leader and leaders with higher rankings can handle a larger squad. The other nice side effect of this is that you cap out the size of squad that the PCs are making. So they couldn't create a squad so large that it unbalances the DCs for the PC level that you are playing at.
Or make each 5 a squad, which can work on a task each day, be it Subsisting, or Crafting, or lookout for threats, or whatever.
The VP system with the ability to go down as well as up on the track might work for what you're doing as well, representing equipment wearing out, disasters, possible sickness setting in, and other negative events as well as positive events like building simple wood huts for more permanent shelters in an area, or domestication of goats for milk and occasional meat that can be taken with the refugees when they move to provide ongoing food benefits. If the PCs don't actively contribute to the wellbeing of the refugees, it means the track will quickly descend into death and chaos.