For the caster I'm not sure. I would rule yes, since other mind effecting spells have language of "they crit save, so they're not effected, but you believe they are." But that's just my take.
Actually, ignore this first part. I do remember reading that language somewhere but after checking the enchantment spell list I can't find it.
Other creatures, well that's more simple, although not easy by any stretch. They have to roll a Sense Motive and land a crit, against the dc of the Calm Emotions.
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The target starts abiding.
But that's just, like my opinion, man.
;)
2 answers:
1. It's within the GM's discretion to have the roll be out in the open if they want it to be, since it doesn't have the secret trait. In other words, perhaps you just kinda know.
2. #1 is in no way required. Personally, as a GM I'd RP someone who crit failed as more cooperative in general and have the player figure it out, but there are a lot of other options as well. For example you could force trial and error, resolve it via sense motive against their deception DC, etc.
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There are a few feats that let you fake your degree of success on a mental saving throw with a deception check. The fact that those feats exist is an indicator that normally people would know.
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There are a few feats that let you fake your degree of success on a mental saving throw with a deception check. The fact that those feats exist is an indicator that normally people would know.
Would you mind pointing me to a feat where that's all it does and it doesn't give an added benefit upon succeeding (or crit succeeding) on the deception check beyond simply deceiving the caster?
I'm not doubting one exists, but I can't seem to find it, and I personally think that's what's necessary to show that you can't do it otherwise, since a feat giving specified benefits when doing X doesn't mean X is impossible without the feat. A classic example I like to use is friendly toss. If a hulking fighter wants to throw a halfling a few feet for some reason I'll allow it, but I can guarantee you for 2 actions I'm not letting the halfling be thrown 30ft, not take fall damage, not trigger enemy reactions, and be able to make an attack against an adjacent foe as a reaction. Not even close. Oh, not to mention the barbarian only needs a single hand free to toss anyone of equal to or smaller size.
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Spy's Countermeasures is an example. Technically it does a bit more than just the deception but it's the bulk of feat.
Though your friendly toss example isn't fully applicable here I think, even if you let someone decieve someone without the feat the caster is still implied to know the result of the spell, even if the result is fake.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=943
That is the other one I was thinking of.
Keep Up Appearances ReactionFeat 1
UncommonHuman
Source Character Guide pg. 12
Access Taldan nationality
Trigger You are affected by an emotion effect.
Taldan pride means you never show weakness. Roll a Deception check and compare the result to any observing creatures’ Perception DCs. On a success, that creature believes you were unaffected by the emotion effect. A creature tricked in this manner can’t benefit from the emotion effect and can’t use abilities that require you to be under this emotion effect; for example, if you successfully use this ability to trick a will-o’-wisp into believing you aren’t under a fear effect, it can’t use its Feed on Fear ability on you.
Yeah... I'm still not seeing that as proof. I have no issue ruling that the caster instantly knows. I think that's actually what most people would do, at least from my personal experience. But, again, a feat that allows you to do X with a bonus doesn't mean you can't do X without the feat, and as more books come out and there's a feat for pretty much everything eventually that kind of reading will be very restrictive.
BTW, when asking that question I specifically had the keep up appearances feat in mind, noting that it also keeps the creature from benefiting from the emotion effect, essentially negating that effect, which is veeeery different from them simply not knowing the full extent of how affected you are from a mere glance, or depending on the environment perhaps even without getting a good look at you and just kind of... feeling the effect of their reaction on you?
Honestly, I'm not sure how I'll run it in the future. Multiple systems have their merits, but I'm really not convinced that those feats prove anything about the question at hand.
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I think it is a good idea to let the tone of the campaign dictate how to arbitrate this for the GM, and make sure that the players know before choosing such options. In a spy/deception focused campaign where the players are going to be doing a lot of politicking and social encounters, and they might even use the spell outside of combat for the sake of doing something in like with the narrative of the spell, as a GM, I would probably be inclined to make saves secretly on emotion and an mental spells and encourage skills and skill feat usage for determining such things.
In a more traditional campaign or dungeon crawl, I would probably let it be public knowledge and not want the players having to invest those choices into options that just let them use their other abilities.
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Yeah... I'm still not seeing that as proof. I have no issue ruling that the caster instantly knows. I think that's actually what most people would do, at least from my personal experience. But, again, a feat that allows you to do X with a bonus doesn't mean you can't do X without the feat, and as more books come out and there's a feat for pretty much everything eventually that kind of reading will be very restrictive.
BTW, when asking that question I specifically had the keep up appearances feat in mind, noting that it also keeps the creature from benefiting from the emotion effect, essentially negating that effect, which is veeeery different from them simply not knowing the full extent of how affected you are from a mere glance, or depending on the environment perhaps even without getting a good look at you and just kind of... feeling the effect of their reaction on you?
Honestly, I'm not sure how I'll run it in the future. Multiple systems have their merits, but I'm really not convinced that those feats prove anything about the question at hand.
Oh, they certainly aren't definitive proof, but it is a piece of evidence. I could certainly see one ruling either way. Personally, I don't think creatures which benefit off emotion effects are common enough to really warrant the feat by itself. But honestly situations where you'd want a saving throw faked are also pretty rare.