Can a Witch's familiar eat a temporary scroll from a Wizard's Scroll Savant feat to learn a spell?
It seems like it would be able to do so, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
So the scenario is one in which a person wizard and a witch are both in the same party and the wizard is creating the scrolls for the witch to learn from.
I don't see why not. It seems like it's quite good until you realize that it's just a slower way of filling out the witch's "spellbook." Two wizards could sit down for a week or so and swap out everything while this method has the witch waiting for the wizard to craft new scrolls every day. On top of that, for the witch to teach spells to the wizard, they'll need to pen scrolls of their own for them.
So yeah, I suppose you could do it.
why did the forum duplicate my post?
I’m blaming bad connectivity sending then disconnect/reconnect and double sending
aren’t the scroll savant scrolls ‘free’?
During your daily preparations, you can create two temporary scrolls containing arcane spells from your spellbook. These scrolls follow the normal rules for scrolls (page 564), with some additional restrictions. Each scroll must be of a different spell level, and both spell levels must be 2 or more levels lower than your highest-level spell. Any scrolls you create this way become non-magical the next time you make your daily preparations. A temporary scroll has no value.
whereas the other method described requires potentially non-trivial (less trivial than free scrolls each day) expenditures?
You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll. If you can cast spells of multiple traditions, you can Learn a Spell of any of those traditions, but you must use the corresponding skill to do so. ...
To learn the spell, you must do the following:
• Spend 1 hour per level of the spell, during which you must remain in conversation with a person who knows the spell or have the magical writing in your possession.
• Have materials with the Price indicated in Table 4–3.
...
While the scrolls are free, the materials needed to "teach" the spell to your familiar are not. A witch who takes a 1st level scroll from a wizard is still going to need to fork over the 2 gold.
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I hate to say it but... yeah, I think this works just fine because the Feat lacks the specific wording that WAS included in the Scroll Trickster Archetype Feat (Scroll Savant) that is EXTREMELY similar but ALSO includes explicit language to say:
"This scroll is an unstable, temporary item and loses its magic the next time you make your daily preparations if you haven't already used it. It can't be used to Learn the Spell."
They could always go back and append the new language to the Wizard Feat but it doesn't seem to have happened yet so... yeah, basically it works.
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While the scrolls are free, the materials needed to "teach" the spell to your familiar are not. A witch who takes a 1st level scroll from a wizard is still going to need to fork over the 2 gold.
I'm not sure this is true, the familiar eating a scroll seems to circumvent needing to use Learn a Spell entirely:
Your familiar can learn new spells independently of your patron. It can learn any spell on your tradition's spell list by physically consuming a scroll of that spell in a process that takes 1 hour. You can use the Learn a Spell exploration activity to prepare a special written version of a spell, which your familiar can consume as if it were a scroll.
The written spell you create using Learn a Spell can be consumed as if it were a scroll, but if you already have a scroll you don't need to separately create a scroll substitute (unless you want to keep the scroll afterwards, at least). I assume this is because the rule is written with the assumption that the scroll itself has value, and being able to use it with free scrolls is probably an oversight.
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While the scrolls are free, the materials needed to "teach" the spell to your familiar are not. A witch who takes a 1st level scroll from a wizard is still going to need to fork over the 2 gold.
I'm reading the rules for Witch differently than this.
Your familiar can learn new spells independently of your patron.
Cool. So I am not limited to level up and Lesson feats as the only way to learn new spells.
It can learn any spell on your tradition's spell list by physically consuming a scroll of that spell in a process that takes 1 hour.
Well, that is one way to deal with treasure and loot found during adventuring. Doesn't look like there are any skill checks needed either.
You can use the Learn a Spell exploration activity to prepare a special written version of a spell, which your familiar can consume as if it were a scroll.
So basically a reflavoring of the process for a Wizard to record a spell learned into the Wizard's spellbook.
You and your familiar can use the Learn a Spell activity to teach your familiar a spell from another witch's familiar. Both familiars must be present for the entirety of the activity, the spell must be on your spellcasting tradition's spell list, and you must pay the usual cost for that activity, typically in the form of an offering to the other familiar's patron.
This also seems to be a reflavoring of the normal process for learning a new spell using the Learn a Spell activity.
You can't prepare spells from another witch's familiar.
Always gotta be worse than a Wizard.
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So from what I am reading, a scroll that a Wizard creates with Scroll Savant could be consumed and learned by the Witch's familiar without any skill checks or cost associated.
Personally, I would push back against this in games that I was running. I don't think that it is RAI. But it is hard to argue against it being RAW.
It looks like I've got the wrong side of the rules here, my bad. (Edit: Extra embarrassing because I have a witch in one of my groups, I we've even run the Learn A Spell activity correctly - no extra gold/materials as I said upthread - I just... memory hole'd it.) That said, I do agree with the general consensus that "Yes, RAW you can, but as a GM it's not something I would allow (without caveats)"
Also, it does seem like a very niche case of having both a wizard and a witch in the party with similar enough spell lists to warrant grabbing the 10th level feat for it.
It looks like I've got the wrong side of the rules here, my bad. (Edit: Extra embarrassing because I have a witch in one of my groups, I we've even run the Learn A Spell activity correctly - no extra gold/materials as I said upthread - I just... memory hole'd it.)
Heh, no worries. Happens to all of us at some point.
And I am not meaning to gang up on you, I got ninja'd by FowlJ . By almost 15 minutes. Because that is how long it takes me to turn thoughts into words.
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So the scenario is one in which a person wizard and a witch are both in the same party and the wizard is creating the scrolls for the witch to learn from.
I was mostly thinking about a Spellblender Wizard who picks up Witch Dedication to bolster his number of lower level spell slots. So I don't have to pay twice to learn a spell.
I hate to say it but... yeah, I think this works just fine because the Feat lacks the specific wording that WAS included in the Scroll Trickster Archetype Feat (Scroll Savant) that is EXTREMELY similar but ALSO includes explicit language to say:
"This scroll is an unstable, temporary item and loses its magic the next time you make your daily preparations if you haven't already used it. It can't be used to Learn the Spell."
They could always go back and append the new language to the Wizard Feat but it doesn't seem to have happened yet so... yeah, basically it works.
Honestly, the way "Learn the Spell" is written in the Scroll Trickster - with capital letters - it's probably meant to be the "Learn a Spell" activity. And the witch doesn't need that to feed a scroll to her Familiar.
So I'd probably even let the familiar consume the Trickster's scrolls. It's a nice Trick since the Trickster can create scrolls of all common spells from the CRB without knowing them. But on the other hand his spells are 2-3 levels behind what the Wizard can cast so I don't think it'll actually break stuff. At that point, the cost of learning a few low level spells is probably negligible.
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Even if a GM doesn't allow the feeding of temporary scrolls, I'm now intrigued by the idea of a Flexible Caster Spell Blending Evoker with arcane Witch Dedication and the Scroll Trickster Archetype. Well, and Scroll Savant, of course. Probably needs free archetype to work. But the skill check for Trick Magic Item seems trivial - especially with Unified Theory.
So the scenario is one in which a person wizard and a witch are both in the same party and the wizard is creating the scrolls for the witch to learn from.I was mostly thinking about a Spellblender Wizard who picks up Witch Dedication to bolster his number of lower level spell slots. So I don't have to pay twice to learn a spell.
In that special case, wouldn't the gold cost and DC to learn the spell be pretty trivial anyway? :)
You can cast 1st level spells with witch dedication at level 4. Learning those is DC 15 and costs 2gp. At that level the wizard would have +12 on Arcana making it hard to fail and 2gp is pocket money. (I'm assuming it would be an arcane witch dedication.)
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In that special case, wouldn't the gold cost and DC to learn the spell be pretty trivial anyway? :)
You can cast 1st level spells with witch dedication at level 4. Learning those is DC 15 and costs 2gp. At that level the wizard would have +12 on Arcana making it hard to fail and 2gp is pocket money. (I'm assuming it would be an arcane witch dedication.)
Well, yes, but it adds up. I might also want to use the free spells from the witch archetype to fill in gaps in the wizard spellbook. So I'll already be paying double for some spells.
Truth be told, I'd probably hardly (if ever) use most of the spells I transfer from wizard to witch. Anything I'd want to cast more than once per day goes to the flexible wizard slots, not the fixed ones of the witch. It would still be nice to let the witch half of the character take part in the knowledge the wizard part has gathered. And doing so for free would be even better. :D
But as I said, this is just a minor thing and I'd be totally willing to play such a character wihtout the free spells.
