Who has the better spell list for playing support? Alchemist or bard?

[Malik Gyan Daumantas]

I'm Leaning towards bard, but i wanted to know if i'm missing something.

Basically the mindset is, if i'm going to play a support/skill monkey investigator, should i play questioner investigator, which uses the bards spell list, or something else entirely?

[Derklord]

As always, depends on the rest of the party (and the campaign).

The Alchemist list has the majority of condition removal spells (most notably Remove Blindness and Lesser Restoration aren't aviable to Bard), which can be vital if your campaign calls for it and you don't have a Cleric or Shaman, or it can be worthless if either of the above isn't the case or you have access to NPC spellcasting a lot. I also has spells like Monkey Fish, Resist Energy, Fly, and it can share spells like See Invisibility, Echolocation, Overland Flight, and various polymorph spells.

Meanwhile, bardic casting gets group buffs (especially Haste and Good Hope), if you have a party with multiple martials, the damage boost of those is huge. I once calculated that casting Haste increased the roundly damage output of my Summoner's party by the same amount as what one of the main damage dealers (Eidolon and WS Druid) did on their own. It also offers support spells like Detect Magic, Silent Image, Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Bard's Escape; the value of those drops drastically if you have someone else in the party capable of casting them, e.g. a Wizard.

[avr]

With bardic performance, the bard. Without bardic performance and with infusion, the investigator - personal-only spells as infusions is a neat trick. Without either, bard again IMO. That's beside the points Derklord raises which could push it either way too.

[MrCharisma]

I'm pretty sure they covered it. Alchemists/Investigstors can hand out buffs with a range of "Personal" which is sometimes amazing, but on the other hand spells like Haste are much less good as a single-target spell.

@Derklord I calculated my damage for my level 12 Bloodrager and without the Bard I do ~36.975 DPR, but with the Bard casting Heroism, Haste, Inspire Courage it's ~125.625 DPR (I have my own buffs that I could use to get better than 37 DPR, but with the Bard around I don't need them). A good buffer is certainly something worth having in the party.

[Derklord]

MrCharisma wrote:

@Derklord I calculated my damage for my level 12 Bloodrager and without the Bard I do ~36.975 DPR, but with the Bard casting Heroism, Haste, Inspire Courage it's ~125.625 DPR

On the flip side, a hastened (could be from Arcane bloodline) Bloodrager who'd spend only a single feat (for Power Attack), and using what I tend to presume for a 12th level character (+4 belt, +4 weapon or +3 AoMF, 18 starting Str + pips), under the effects of Monstrous Physique II from e.g. an Investigator infusion extract, pounces for 189 DPR.

Of course, that requires the character to spend a standard action to drink the potion, and only affects one character, but meanwhile, my Haste anekdote was with three martial damage dealers, and thus doesn't apply to every group, either. Like I said, "As always, depends on the rest of the party (and the campaign)."

[MrCharisma]

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

@Derklord I calculated my damage for my level 12 Bloodrager and without the Bard I do ~36.975 DPR, but with the Bard casting Heroism, Haste, Inspire Courage it's ~125.625 DPR

On the flip side, a hastened (could be from Arcane bloodline) Bloodrager who'd spend only a single feat (for Power Attack), and using what I tend to presume for a 12th level character (+4 belt, +4 weapon or +3 AoMF, 18 starting Str + pips), under the effects of Monstrous Physique II from e.g. an Investigator infusion extract, pounces for 189 DPR.

Yeah, my character has a +2 STR belt and a +1 weapon ... I'm really not built for offence =P

It's hard to quantify a Bard - the more PCs (/summons/cohorts/etc) in the party the better the bard gets. It's the same with spells like Haste, the more members of the party who benefit, the better it is.

If you're playing an Archer Bard with a Fighter, a Magus and a Reach Cleric in the party you'll probably want a Bard.
If you're playing with a casting-focused Oracle, a Psychic, and a Barbarian you probably consider the Extracts superior since the big buffs are mostly for the Barbarian.

Quote:

Of course, that requires the character to spend a standard action to drink the potion, and only affects one character, but meanwhile, my Haste anekdote was with three martial damage dealers, and thus doesn't apply to every group, either. [BPLike I said, "As always, depends on the rest of the party (and the campaign)." [/b]

Honestly, I couldn't agree more. If I came across as saying something different then forgive me for being clear.

[strayshift]

Bard and I will also point out one spell in particular which id probably over powered: Bard's Escape. Essentially you can set the fight up exactly as you want it. It is strangly worded as a defensive spell but it will be used offensively by any intelligent player.

Priot to that you have beacon of luck, arcane concordance, displacement, haste, acute senses (another o.p. spell) and timely inspiration. I could go on.

[PCScipio]

It would be more accurate to call Bard's Escape "Mass Combat Teleport".