Is the Treerazer enough of a challenge?

[richienvh]

So I'm GMing a campaign that has been going from level 1 to 20. It ends in two weeks and the BBEG is the Treerazer. Players are expected to reach level 20 in today's session.

While doing my prep, I kept wondering if the Treerazer is enough to pose a challenge to the characters. I mean, I know it is a level 25 creature, which should mean it is off the charts already, but have any of you run an encounter with it?

The party is a ranger, a cloistered cleric, a beast summoner, a dragon barbarian and a bard. I feel kind of worried on the action economy. I have also had the Treerazer prepare some 'nastier specials' in the form of a few power word kills, a prismatic wall for crowd controlling and an antimagic field if things go south.

Do you feel it could be a decent fight or am I looking at a piece of cake or TPK?

[Dr A Gon]

It's a demon lord(?) what can cast planar ally and command the obedience of lesser creatures. Why is it alone?

EDIT: That's the answer to "is it enough of a challenge?". Really we're talking about if it's too strong! :-)

[Nyhme]

It completely depends on how you set him up. I doubt antimagic field is a good idea since it turns blackaxe into a plain obsidian axe. His bite is still impressive but axe is his heal and his better attack. He also cant use his get out of jail free card in one.

Remember he has a 26 intelligence. Make sure to play him as such. Also, take into account he is aware that with him being cast out of the abyss he is terrified of dying on yhe material since it means his permanent death. He will escape the moment he feels the fight isnt going his way.

If you allow the PCs to get the jump on him the fight will be a joke. A cold iron spellstrike arrow with a high level searing light cast in it can easily take half his life in one shot.

[Dr A Gon]

Wouldn't antimagic field will stop spellstrike arrow shenanigans?

Your average party is highly dependent on magic items (more than a monster which has better stats but fewer powers and fewer toys) and I think antimagic helps treerazer. It will depend on the party build, however; godless healign and alchemy could still heal inside of antimagic. TR can still escape by flying at 60. Unless you're like a strix monk or something, wthout magic flight items, I don't see how you chase it.

I need to ask if artifacts are affected by antimagic field? (Are they magic items?) They are certainly not affected by disjunction.

[Kelseus]

A level 20 fighter with max strength (24) and a +3 weapon has a +38 to hit. With a 54 AC, the fighter needs a natural 16 to hit Treerazer.

A Paladin has a Max AC of 49 with their shield raised. Meaning Treerazer needs to roll a 2 to hit.

A Wizard with a Max Int (24) has a save DC of 45. Meaning Treerazer has to roll a 3 or better to save.

Yes Treerazer will completely destroy a party that isn't eminently prepared or have some kind of mcguffin to give them a chance.

[Nyhme]

Non magic flight for 20th lvl is easy. Aasimar, teifling, strix, tengu, kobold, cloud jump, felling shot, felling strike all easy ways to overcome it.

And yes antimagic would overcome the spellstrike arrow shenanigans but treerazor is also very dependent on magic. If you can stop his magic then it's easy to strategically manage his actions and take him. No freedom of movement and a giant instinct barbarian with a gill hook can shut down 2 of his actions every round with relative ease. Or even more reliable giant instinct duel weapon warrior barbarian with giants lung duel wielding fangwire with furious grab is pretty much guaranteed to shut treerazor down in an anti magic field.

[Kelseus]

Dr A Gon wrote:

Wouldn't antimagic field will stop spellstrike arrow shenanigans?

Your average party is highly dependent on magic items (more than a monster which has better stats but fewer powers and fewer toys) and I think antimagic helps treerazer. It will depend on the party build, however; godless healign and alchemy could still heal inside of antimagic. TR can still escape by flying at 60. Unless you're like a strix monk or something, wthout magic flight items, I don't see how you chase it.

I need to ask if artifacts are affected by antimagic field? (Are they magic items?) They are certainly not affected by disjunction.

Antimagic field is a 10ft radius around the caster. It will reduce the Blackaxe damage from 4d12 + 5d6 + 15 down to 1d12 + 2d6 + 15, but that is still an average of 28.5 damage per hit. With a 15 ft reach he's not even in the AM field. Also maybe he doesn't use Blackaxe, maybe he just bites you. There are not striking or property runes to disable on that.

Also he might be able to dispel it with his level 9 dispel magic. And nothing stop him from using Blackaxe to heal himself.

[Nyhme]

Kelseus wrote:

Dr A Gon wrote:

Wouldn't antimagic field will stop spellstrike arrow shenanigans?

Your average party is highly dependent on magic items (more than a monster which has better stats but fewer powers and fewer toys) and I think antimagic helps treerazer. It will depend on the party build, however; godless healign and alchemy could still heal inside of antimagic. TR can still escape by flying at 60. Unless you're like a strix monk or something, wthout magic flight items, I don't see how you chase it.

I need to ask if artifacts are affected by antimagic field? (Are they magic items?) They are certainly not affected by disjunction.

Antimagic field is a 10ft radius around the caster. It will reduce the Blackaxe damage from 4d12 + 5d6 + 15 down to 1d12 + 2d6 + 15, but that is still an average of 28.5 damage per hit. With a 15 ft reach he's not even in the AM field. Also maybe he doesn't use Blackaxe, maybe he just bites you. There are not striking or property runes to disable on that.

Also he might be able to dispel it with his level 9 dispel magic. And nothing stop him from using Blackaxe to heal himself.

Antimagic field is immune to dispel magic at all levels.

[Dr A Gon]

I would rule that if any part of a magic item is inside an antimagic field, the whole item is suppresed. If you usie a 15' reach magic weapon through a 10' antimagic field, it's just a normal weapon. It's undefined in 2E but it removes the need to have to deal with difficult corner cases and decide which part of the thing the magic is in.

I've noticed the wording for antimagic field is different in 2E. 1E anti magic field specifically stated it did not affect artifacts. 2E seems to imply that it does, as it doesn't list an exception, and considers artifacts to be magic items. That seems very weird as it gives you a way to loophole some of their disadvantages. So you could open an apocalypse boxx or deck of many things and shove it in an antimagic box if you don't like the result. That's not right, and I'm now of the mind that artifacts ignore antimagic fields.

[Fumarole]

Nyhme wrote:

Antimagic field is immune to dispel magic at all levels.

A higher level dispel magic can affect antimagic field.

[Kelseus]

Dr A Gon wrote:

I would rule that if any part of a magic item is inside an antimagic field, the whole item is suppresed. If you usie a 15' reach magic weapon through a 10' antimagic field, it's just a normal weapon. It's undefined in 2E but it removes the need to have to deal with difficult corner cases and decide which part of the thing the magic is in.

I've noticed the wording for antimagic field is different in 2E. 1E anti magic field specifically stated it did not affect artifacts. 2E seems to imply that it does, as it doesn't list an exception, and considers artifacts to be magic items. That seems very weird as it gives you a way to loophole some of their disadvantages. So you could open an apocalypse boxx or deck of many things and shove it in an antimagic box if you don't like the result. That's not right, and I'm now of the mind that artifacts ignore antimagic fields.

I would run it that Blackaxe "winks" in and out as Treerazer strikes into the AMF. My point was that while his weapon attacks are effected by the AMF, HE isn't. Meaning he can still use all his powers. true seeing, time stop, corruption aura, regeneration, healing etc.

[Dr A Gon]

Kelseus wrote:

I would run it that Blackaxe "winks" in and out as Treerazer strikes into the AMF. My point was that while his weapon attacks are effected by the AMF, HE isn't. Meaning he can still use all his powers. true seeing, time stop, corruption aura, regeneration, healing etc.

That is not how that works. Treerazer's true seeing comes from a spell, and it is level 8, which means it will not function in an antimagic field of 8th level (the minmium).

Time Stop is also a spell and would function if it exceeds the level of the AMF. (Which it does if the AMF is not heightened).

Regeneration is unaffected.

EDIT: Wait your are right, the parts of true seeing outside the field will still work. It will just fail within 10 feet of Treerazer. But work in its eyes. I AM VERY CONFUSED NOW. Does its emanation include itself?

Wait, yes it must or you could still shoot spells at TR. So TR's AMF must cover itself, So no it could use true seeing.

[Perpdepog]

I'd argue that the Blackaxe would still be considered magic when part of it is out of the field, because of how the field interacts with things like spells. The spell doesn't just stop, it only stops for the area of the field.

So if Treerazor was hitting someone fifteen feet away, the axe would be magical. Anyone who was closer, however, would be getting the bite.

[thewastedwalrus]

I think there was a FAQ to specifically allow casters to not be considered in emanations they create (like antimagic field). So Blackaxe should still be at its full strength if Treerazor wished it so.

EDIT: Ah nevermind, it's explicitly called out in the spell.

[Nyhme]

I'm definitely changing my opinion on antimagic field in regards to treerazor. If he is in one as an 8th lvl spell it definitely wouldn't affect most of his spells and blackaxe. Blackaxe is a +4 item which is higher than 20th lvl so a 10+ spell effect. Saying that it winks in and out is just lazy, no spell effect in the game only partially affects things. A large creature doesnt recieve 25% of a lightning bolt damage because the line only passed through one corner square. Time stop, horrid wilting, dispell magic and his other 9th+ effects would also work normally. He would lose freedom of movement though.

Even still, Treerazor by himself and not played properly is an easy kill. A fighter recieving the aid action to attack from a hafling with a heroism spell, a quicksilver mutagen and a true target only needs a 6+ on 2 d20s to damage and slow 1 him or more devastatingly a spellstrike arrow with 8th lvl searing light if they archetyped into cleric. A ruffian rogue with duel weapon warrior, dual thrower and dual onslaught only needs an 8+ on 2 dice to hit, deal sneak damage and apply debilitation. A giant instinct barbarian with duel weapon warrior and dual onslaught with fangwire is also almost guaranteed to apply a grapple with their hit at range 20 so other than just attacking the barbarian's appendage has to break the gapple to get in melee and yes freedom of movement guarantees success on his escape but that means treerazor is down 1 action and already at map -5. Which a paladin or an observant halfing investigator with foresight cast on them can easily tank. Or a gymnast swashbuckler under 4th lvl enlarge and a whip with a readied action to trip once treerazor steps into range. I can go on with more ways a party can easily overcome treerazor but i think the point is made.

The beauty of 2e is the strategy. If you only think "a fighter needs an 18 to hit" you arent playing correctly. With a 3 action economy fighting a lone boss is all about managing action economy. Its relatively easy to cut treerazor down to 2 actions then force him to have to use actions just to get into melee.

[Fumarole]

Nyhme wrote:

Time stop, horrid wilting, dispell magic and his other 9th+ effects would also work normally. He would lose freedom of movement though.

I do not think this is a correct reading of the antimagic field spell. The spell description says higher level spells (specifically calling out dispel magic) can "affect the field itself," not that the spell is unaffected by the field and works normally within it. It's an important difference.

[Nyhme]

Fumarole wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

Time stop, horrid wilting, dispell magic and his other 9th+ effects would also work normally. He would lose freedom of movement though.

I do not think this is a correct reading of the antimagic field spell. The spell description says higher level spells (specifically calling out dispel magic) can "affect the field itself," not that the spell is unaffected by the field and works normally within it. It's an important difference.

CRB pg 318 "Spells of a higher level than the antimagic field overcome its effects, and can even be cast by a creature within the field"

Non treerazor thought. That means a 20th lvl cleric could cast antimagic aura with effortless concentration then cast avatar.

[Kelseus]

Nyhme wrote:

Even still, Treerazor by himself and not played properly is an easy kill. A fighter recieving the aid action to attack from a hafling with a heroism spell, a quicksilver mutagen and a true target only needs a 6+ on 2 d20s to damage and slow 1 him or more devastatingly a spellstrike arrow with 8th lvl searing light if they archetyped into cleric. A ruffian rogue with duel weapon warrior, dual thrower and dual onslaught only needs an 8+ on 2 dice to hit, deal sneak damage and apply debilitation. A giant instinct barbarian with duel weapon warrior and dual onslaught with fangwire is also almost guaranteed to apply a grapple with their hit at range 20 so other than just attacking the barbarian's appendage has to break the gapple to get in melee and yes freedom of movement guarantees success on his escape but that means treerazor is down 1 action and already at map -5. Which a paladin or an observant halfing investigator with foresight cast on them can easily tank. Or a gymnast swashbuckler under 4th lvl enlarge and a whip with a readied action to trip once treerazor steps into range. I can go on with more ways a party can easily overcome treerazor but i think the point is made.

I'm not so sure about your builds here. Just taking the fighter, the quicksilver grants an item bonus, so it doesn't stack with your weapon so net +1, he's also taking 40 hp damage and a -2 to fort saves (very bad against Treerazer). I assume you are using a Halfling so they can have Halfling Helper feat, but that only grants a greater circumstance bonus on skill checks not attack rolls. It would also not be unreasonable for the DC to aid attacks against Treerazer to be very high, say a 40+. So with a 9th level and 7th level spell, assuming a flanking bonus and a critical success on aid, the fighter now goes from a +38 to a +45 against a 52 AC, meaning on two rolls he needs a 7 or better to hit. But that is also only for the first hit. It is more likely to be a +43. Your halfling friend who is using 2 of 3 actions to aid every round is going to get quickly pulverized.

I'm not saying that Treerazor is impossible, but to say that he is easy is hard to fathom.

[Nyhme]

Kelseus wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

Even still, Treerazor by himself and not played properly is an easy kill. A fighter recieving the aid action to attack from a hafling with a heroism spell, a quicksilver mutagen and a true target only needs a 6+ on 2 d20s to damage and slow 1 him or more devastatingly a spellstrike arrow with 8th lvl searing light if they archetyped into cleric. A ruffian rogue with duel weapon warrior, dual thrower and dual onslaught only needs an 8+ on 2 dice to hit, deal sneak damage and apply debilitation. A giant instinct barbarian with duel weapon warrior and dual onslaught with fangwire is also almost guaranteed to apply a grapple with their hit at range 20 so other than just attacking the barbarian's appendage has to break the gapple to get in melee and yes freedom of movement guarantees success on his escape but that means treerazor is down 1 action and already at map -5. Which a paladin or an observant halfing investigator with foresight cast on them can easily tank. Or a gymnast swashbuckler under 4th lvl enlarge and a whip with a readied action to trip once treerazor steps into range. I can go on with more ways a party can easily overcome treerazor but i think the point is made.

I'm not so sure about your builds here. Just taking the fighter, the quicksilver grants an item bonus, so it doesn't stack with your weapon so net +1, he's also taking 40 hp damage and a -2 to fort saves (very bad against Treerazer). I assume you are using a Halfling so they can have Halfling Helper feat, but that only grants a greater circumstance bonus on skill checks not attack rolls. It would also not be unreasonable for the DC to aid attacks against Treerazer to be very high, say a 40+. So with a 9th level and 7th level spell, assuming a flanking bonus and a critical success on aid, the fighter now goes from a +38 to a +45 against a 52 AC, meaning on two rolls he needs a 7 or better to hit. But that is also only for the first hit. It is more likely to be a +43. Your halfling friend who is using 2 of 3 actions...

Hasted/heroism hafling fighter with cleric dedication And Spellstrike arrows

Hasted/heroism hafling ruffian rogue with cleric dedication and spellstrike arrows
Wizard with spellslime independent familiar with silence
Hasted/heroism hafling ranger with spellstrike arrow and cleric dedication.

Setup round wizard makes sure everyone has invisibility at greater than 60 range so trueseeing no issue. Everyone delays initiative for it to line up wizard, rogue, ranger fighter.

Rogue sets up an aid action, Ranger sets up an aid action, Fighter sets up an aid action. Next round wizard does true target time beacon and quickened polar ray needing a 10 to hit(28+7+3+4) on 4 dice(93.75% chance). Ice damage plus drained 2.

All 3 martials are doing spellstrike arrow with their 8th lvl searing light 2 actions, 1 aid action for the next person in line and their quickened action to shoot their spellstrike activated arrow.

Ruffian rogue goes 8 to hit on 2 dice(84% chance 28ish% chance to crit). Bow damage plus 8th lvl searing light damage plus clumsy plus weak piercing 5 plus sneak damage from arrow and spell. Ranger goes 7 to hit on 2 dice(87.5% chance 30ish% chance to critw) bow damage plus weakness piercing plus precision plus 8th lvl searing light, fighter goes 5 to hit on 2 dice(93.75% chance to hit 45ish% chance to crit) bow damage plus searing light damage plus. This isnt figuring the aligned oil on the arrows so theyre doing good damage and made from cold iron arrows. Anyways yea treerazor dead and he wasnt aware of the fight.

Aid affects attack

Aid Reaction
Source Core Rulebook pg. 470 2.0
Trigger An ally is about to use an action that requires a skill check or attack roll.
Requirements The ally is willing to accept your aid, and you have prepared to help (see below).

Doubling the dc from 20 to 40 is absolutely unjustifiable an incredibly hard/unique dc adjustment the highest listed on the dc adjustment chart is only +10. So anything more than 30 isnt even feasible by any stretch. but even still with a few easily aquired feats a 40 is easy to crit the aid.

26 prof, 7 dex, 4 circ from cooporative nature, 3 from heroism and 4 item bonus thats a +44 bonus on your rediculous 40 dc. With thw reroll from luck its very improbable not to get a crit on the aid.

From cultural adapability
Human
Source Core Rulebook pg. 57 2.0
The short human life span lends perspective and has taught you from a young age to set aside differences and work with others to achieve greatness. You gain a +4 circumstance bonus on checks to Aid.

1st lvl feat is hafling luck, 5th cultural adapability 9th helpful hafling 13th is guiding luck. So you have a free reroll.

And dont get me wrong Treerazer done properly should be a ridiculous encounter. However as i told the op, a 5 person prepared party thrown against a solo treerazer will win relatively easily unless they dont know how to prepare.

[Exocist]

richienvh wrote:

So I'm GMing a campaign that has been going from level 1 to 20. It ends in two weeks and the BBEG is the Treerazer. Players are expected to reach level 20 in today's session.

While doing my prep, I kept wondering if the Treerazer is enough to pose a challenge to the characters. I mean, I know it is a level 25 creature, which should mean it is off the charts already, but have any of you run an encounter with it?

The party is a ranger, a cloistered cleric, a beast summoner, a dragon barbarian and a bard. I feel kind of worried on the action economy. I have also had the Treerazer prepare some 'nastier specials' in the form of a few power word kills, a prismatic wall for crowd controlling and an antimagic field if things go south.

Do you feel it could be a decent fight or am I looking at a piece of cake or TPK?

I have run treerazer as weak adjusted against 2 level 20s (for playtesting reasons). Neither of the level 20s had any healing, or debuffing, only a heroism (9) from a scroll each.

Despite that, they lasted 7 rounds before both of them died. Treerazer simply doesn’t do enough damage at that level to be threatening. With 5 players including a bard, they will absolutely crush him as written (moreso if they have cold iron and/or good damage).

Level+ monsters just aren’t scary at high levels absent mega BS abilities that can disable the entire party, the bard alone has the capability to swing the numbers by up to 12 in the party’s favour (3 heroism/heroics, 4 aid, 3 synesthesia, 2 flatfooted) turning the fighter from hitting on a 16 to hitting on a 4. The cleric is probably able to undo a round’s worth of damage every round using a 9th Heal. All the rest have to do is attack him.

[Kelseus]

Nyhme wrote:

A lot

But what if you whole party doesn't have cleric dedication and 24 Dex?

Can you build a party from the ground up to fight Treerazer? Yes. That doesn't make him easy to kill. No.

[thenobledrake]

Exocist wrote:

Treerazer simply doesn’t do enough damage at that level to be threatening.

Reading this made me very curious, because my first glance over Treerazer's stat block told me a very different thing.

So let's work this out a little: With the Weak template, the 120' aura that makes the party potentially susceptible to all of the plant-focused offense Treerazer has is DC 45. Against a Master Fortitude save, with major resilience rune, and a +4 Con modifier, totalling +33, that leaves the entire party more likely to fail than to succeed. And it's rolled each round, so it's very likely our party will be facing the added plant damage.

Next up is Defoliation, dealing 20d8 (-4 because of the weak template, but that's barely noticeable among all those dice) damage and massively debuffing the majority of the party (and repeatable, potentially at least), which has an even less likely to pass DC on it's save (47, after the weak template, still going up against ~+33 or less). Some characters will have the benefit of not taking damage on a successful save, but some won't.

Then, the actual attacks, though I'm just going for Blackaxe at the moment: 4d12+15 slashing, plus 1d6 acid, 1d6 chaotic, 1d6 evil, and 2d6 more slashing against plants. Ignoring what I hope is a common house-rule that makes alignment damage not avoidable by just picking Neutral, we're looking at 51.5 average damage roll (49.5 after the weak template). At the adjusted +45 attack modifier against an AC of 44 (10 + Master 26, potency +3, armor/dex +5), we're looking at 5% chance to miss, 60% chance to critically hit, and 35% chance to just hit. That means the first attack in a round has an adjusted DPR around 76.725.

Considering that a 20th-level character might have around 248 HP (8 x 21 + 20 x 4), that's around 30% of a character's HP.

So in the first round, the entire party is probably susceptible to tree-damaging powers, has taken 15-30% of their HP in damage, become sickened 3, and one character is down another 30% HP and more likely than not Stunned 2 on top of it.

Just taking a "bad choice" turn and attacking with all 3 actions with Blackaxe against the same target, a weakened Treerazor does an average of 170.775 damage.

Conclusion: A pair of high-damage roll crits from Treerazor, even weakened, can easily take a full HP 20th-level character to the floor. If fought in practical conditions, would certainly be able to present a challenge to a full party, even without the GM carefully studying the stat block to find the best synergy of actions.

[Nyhme]

Kelseus wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

A lot

But what if you whole party doesn't have cleric dedication and 24 Dex?

Can you build a party from the ground up to fight Treerazer? Yes. That doesn't make him easy to kill. No.

Yep, i have like 8 different 4 person party makeups that can do it easily. That was just the easiest to type out.

4 rogues is my favorite but thats just cause its all stealth and so can avoid an actual setup easier.

The most reliable is a fighter, barbarian, swashbuckler, rogue setup.

There's also the super gimmick rogue solo build but it requires a 12 on 2 d20 and a bunch of setup without being discovered.

But all of these require an unprepared treerazer that is by himself. He is a super genius thats paranoid and the god of his on cult/clergy. He will have a high priest of his clergy as well as many cultists and demons nearby to aid him. Plus theres no reason why he wouldn't be investing other magic items everyday. So yeah he should be a nearly impossible fight. My point is dont put him with just that stat block against a prepared party.

[Exocist]

thenobledrake wrote:

Exocist wrote:

Treerazer simply doesn’t do enough damage at that level to be threatening.

Reading this made me very curious, because my first glance over Treerazer's stat block told me a very different thing.

So let's work this out a little: With the Weak template, the 120' aura that makes the party potentially susceptible to all of the plant-focused offense Treerazer has is DC 45. Against a Master Fortitude save, with major resilience rune, and a +4 Con modifier, totalling +33, that leaves the entire party more likely to fail than to succeed. And it's rolled each round, so it's very likely our party will be facing the added plant damage.

Next up is Defoliation, dealing 20d8 (-4 because of the weak template, but that's barely noticeable among all those dice) damage and massively debuffing the majority of the party (and repeatable, potentially at least), which has an even less likely to pass DC on it's save (47, after the weak template, still going up against ~+33 or less). Some characters will have the benefit of not taking damage on a successful save, but some won't.

Then, the actual attacks, though I'm just going for Blackaxe at the moment: 4d12+15 slashing, plus 1d6 acid, 1d6 chaotic, 1d6 evil, and 2d6 more slashing against plants. Ignoring what I hope is a common house-rule that makes alignment damage not avoidable by just picking Neutral, we're looking at 51.5 average damage roll (49.5 after the weak template). At the adjusted +45 attack modifier against an AC of 44 (10 + Master 26, potency +3, armor/dex +5), we're looking at 5% chance to miss, 60% chance to critically hit, and 35% chance to just hit. That means the first attack in a round has an adjusted DPR around 76.725.

Considering that a 20th-level character might have around 248 HP (8 x 21 + 20 x 4), that's around 30% of a character's HP.

So in the first round, the entire party is probably susceptible to tree-damaging powers, has taken 15-30% of their HP in damage, become sickened 3, and one character is down another 30% HP...

The statblocks for high level monsters generally look a lot scarier than they actually play out. Let me relate to you what happened:

Corruption Aura: No one failed their save until round 4-5. Maybe they just got very lucky. On average 2 people will fail, then 1 of the remaining 2 then the last one will fail round 3-4. This severely limits the effect of Defoliation early.

Defolitation: Maybe adds quite a lot of RNG, sickened 3 is definitely the worst part of this. 20d8 damage is like 30% of your HP - not a lot. Very easily healable. Of course, you can crit fail, but also juggernaut negates this entirely on a success.

Attack: For some reason this just never did much damage. 41, 48 if they failed vs aura. Even doubled on a crit, the scariest part is the stun. 3 actions attacking can almost entirely be reversed by a 2a heal spell.

Dispelling Strike: At least he can remove buffs, otherwise he’d be super easy to cheese with mind blank and invis/disappearance. Although the dispel would be subject to a second flat check so even then maybe not.

And that’s it, that’s basically the entire statblock. Aside from Horrid Wilting and Time Stop his spells aren’t really worth casting (even horrid wilting is kinda bad tbh).

I’d encourage people to set up a one shot at level 20, it’s really eye opening to see just how much of a joke these level+ enemies can be by then.

If you want an actually threatening level+ enemy at 20, look at the Hekatonkheires Titan, specifically because of this ability

Hundred Dimension Grasp wrote:

Hundred-Dimension Grasp Single Action The titan reaches between realities to drag foes closer. They attempt an Athletics check and compare the result to the Fortitude DCs of all foes within 120 feet. On a success, a foe is teleported to any square the titan chooses within 120 feet; on a critical success, it's also paralyzed for 1 round. The titan can Grab any foe brought within 30 feet as a free action.

Specifically because it has +48 athletics and this has no recharge whatsoever, so even a 20 con level 20 barbarian (+36 fort) gets crit on an 8. With only 1 roll for the whole party, it can just attempt this twice and should paralyze everyone on average (can attempt a third time if the second wasn’t successful).

The damage of this creature outside hundred handed whirlwind isn’t that threatening though.

[Captain Morgan]

Nyhme wrote:

Kelseus wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

A lot

But what if you whole party doesn't have cleric dedication and 24 Dex?

Can you build a party from the ground up to fight Treerazer? Yes. That doesn't make him easy to kill. No.

Yep, i have like 8 different 4 person party makeups that can do it easily. That was just the easiest to type out.

4 rogues is my favorite but thats just cause its all stealth and so can avoid an actual setup easier.

The most reliable is a fighter, barbarian, swashbuckler, rogue setup.

There's also the super gimmick rogue solo build but it requires a 12 on 2 d20 and a bunch of setup without being discovered.

But all of these require an unprepared treerazer that is by himself. He is a super genius thats paranoid and the god of his on cult/clergy. He will have a high priest of his clergy as well as many cultists and demons nearby to aid him. Plus theres no reason why he wouldn't be investing other magic items everyday. So yeah he should be a nearly impossible fight. My point is dont put him with just that stat block against a prepared party.

I mean, even your prepared party is pretty contrived. Like, that's all theoretically possible, if your players have perfect information and are tactically brilliant and work in perfect lock step with each other and will always do the tactically optimal play over the best roleplaying decision.

But that definitely isn't true of all players. This is something which is a lot easier to do as a GM theory crafting than as a group of players who don't have his statblock and have differing levels of engagement.

[Fumarole]

Nyhme wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

Time stop, horrid wilting, dispell magic and his other 9th+ effects would also work normally. He would lose freedom of movement though.

I do not think this is a correct reading of the antimagic field spell. The spell description says higher level spells (specifically calling out dispel magic) can "affect the field itself," not that the spell is unaffected by the field and works normally within it. It's an important difference.

CRB pg 318 "Spells of a higher level than the antimagic field overcome its effects, and can even be cast by a creature within the field"

I'll be damned, that's correct.

[Nyhme]

Fumarole wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

Nyhme wrote:

Time stop, horrid wilting, dispell magic and his other 9th+ effects would also work normally. He would lose freedom of movement though.

I do not think this is a correct reading of the antimagic field spell. The spell description says higher level spells (specifically calling out dispel magic) can "affect the field itself," not that the spell is unaffected by the field and works normally within it. It's an important difference.

CRB pg 318 "Spells of a higher level than the antimagic field overcome its effects, and can even be cast by a creature within the field"

I'll be damned, that's correct.

I know! I can't tell you how many times ive read that spell and completely missed that myself.