I begun to write down a home brew class for the death Knight from WOW.
The idea was to make the 3 specs in the class where blood is the more tanky version, frost a dual wielding and heavy crit based, plague more focused in using skill.
At end game, blood would be legend in armors, frost legend in weapons and plague legend in class DC.
I thought of using the same style as the cleric (doctrines) to achieve this.
Any opinion or tips?
How whould be the best way of doing this and scaling?
I always thought they were anti-paladins. I think the Desecrator (NE Champion) chassis is another possible starting point. You could put a spellcaster archetype on that and get a few spells to simulate the various powers, but I think you'd do better by making a custom AT for the Champion that has the abilities you need like cause plague and chill weapon. After you've got most of the powers sorted you can then look at turning the AT into a complete class.
I always thought they were anti-paladins. I think the Desecrator (NE Champion) chassis is another possible starting point. You could put a spellcaster archetype on that and get a few spells to simulate the various powers, but I think you'd do better by making a custom AT for the Champion that has the abilities you need like cause plague and chill weapon. After you've got most of the powers sorted you can then look at turning the AT into a complete class.
Thanks for the reply.
In the core yes thei would be Anti paladins but since thei are free from the lich king thei can be from any aligment and are not bound by tenets or anathemas, thei draw their powers from their weapons. It's kind complex because thei use undead and evil spells to fight evil or the other faction (in WOW, player only care for loot/gold or honor, not reason LOL)I was wondering if AT is the way to go because there are so many feats to add. And how would the AT increase the casting proficiency of focus spells or class DC, is that even possible or at least balanced? Would i make one AT for each specialization or once you pick the AT you already choose between blood, frost and plague?
What do you think to start striping the champion from what is gods related leaving a blank space for adding new stuff. Remove all "good" and god related feats. Add stuff from other classes then create what is lacking.
Try a Bones Oracle, invest in heavy armor and weapon proficiency, max out your strength and charisma. I think you'll get a bit more bang for your buck going that direction than trying to go with Champion (bad mechanics for it, I think) just because DKs are sort of anti-paladins in WoW. Half of what a DK does is cast spells, whereas Champions in P2e are 90% martials and 10% focus casters.
You may not have the same martial proficiency but you'll have spells like animate dead, vampiric touch, and a bunch of themes around becoming undead and using negative energy. I've had a player basically go this exact direction (martial Bones Oracle) for a one-off at level 8 and the character worked really well and seemed to have a lot of options and cool flavor.
Plus, with Oracle you don't really have to houserule anything. No alignment restrictions, full access to necromancy and full casting, interesting curse (you rot!), all sorts of things that I think play well with WoW DKs.
Suffer well.
*cries in 2h Frost*
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I begun to write down a home brew class for the death Knight from WOW.
Great idea. Definitely room in PF2 or that kind of class. In general, I would look toward a design space between Paladin and Magus. Casting is an important part of Death Knight lore, even if it's limited.
The idea was to make the 3 specs in the class where blood is the more tanky version
I would look into Barbarian and 2H Magus as inspiration for this. These both give temporary HP as a source of resilience. You could also look for HP drain spells and monster abilities as inspiration.
frost a dual wielding and heavy crit based
Critical focused gameplay is horrible in PF. In videogames it's fun because you get so many attacks while playing, hundreds and thousands. During TTRPGs you can often count the number of attacks you make in a session on your hands, so if your dice are even a little cold you will feel like garbage. Focusing around criticals is just not a good idea, in my opinion.
There's no reason to make a subclass "dual wield" focused besides catering to the WOW version. I would instead lean into the "Frost" part of the class. Give them cold themed abilities and let them pick their own weapon style to pair with them.
plague more focused in using skill.
This sounds super promising. I'd be tempted to look into Witch and Bard for inspiration for debuffs that aren't traditional spells.
I thought of using the same style as the cleric (doctrines) to achieve this.
You can use the cleric subclass as a point of reference, but I don't think it's going to be a super great starting point. You're probably going to have to go with a bit of eyeballing on the balance between different subclasses, and have people here review and critique them.
Also, I would strongly caution against giving Frost legendary in weapons. That gives you VERY little room to work with giving them flavorful Death Knight abilities.
Legendary in armor for Blood might also be a poor idea, because you can give them other means of being resilient plus bonus flavor abilities. However, if you did stick with Legendary in armor, I think Paladin gives you a good idea of what kind of utility you can expect to balance that with.
I exaggerate, but crit fishing builds in Pathfinder are 4 hours of boredom and 4 seconds of triumphant laughter.
Try a Bones Oracle, invest in heavy armor and weapon proficiency, max out your strength and charisma. I think you'll get a bit more bang for your buck going that direction than trying to go with Champion (bad mechanics for it, I think) just because DKs are sort of anti-paladins in WoW. Half of what a DK does is cast spells, whereas Champions in P2e are 90% martials and 10% focus casters.
You may not have the same martial proficiency but you'll have spells like animate dead, vampiric touch, and a bunch of themes around becoming undead and using negative energy. I've had a player basically go this exact direction (martial Bones Oracle) for a one-off at level 8 and the character worked really well and seemed to have a lot of options and cool flavor.
Plus, with Oracle you don't really have to houserule anything. No alignment restrictions, full access to necromancy and full casting, interesting curse (you rot!), all sorts of things that I think play well with WoW DKs.
Suffer well.
Thanks! This helped me alot. This bone oracle has some promising features and also the focus recovery from oracle.
By the end i will have to give proficiency because death knights are heavy armor blade wielding martial class (warcraft 2 dk would be oracle for sure) with spells.My problem was to start with champion proficiency maybe i should end using something lower and raise where needed.
I was thinking on going with Focus spell class to reflect rune recharging (oracle seams to help on this) from the game and feats with other spell-like abilities. But still would need martial support.
One classic DK skill is Death Coil, it would work like touch of corruption (evil champs) but with ranged (maybe 1 action touch, 2 action ranged 30ft), perhaps i can give all DK touch of corruption at level 1 and by feat level 2 turn into death coil.
I think trying to too rigidly convert the roles of a Death Knight from WoW into PF2 simply doesn't work.
I think you need to broaden your defintions.
Have a Blood Knight with Tanky abilities.
A frost knight that focuses on using their melee weapon in combat.
And a plague knight that focuses on using magical abilities against their enemy.
I also think they're best done by starting with the evil champion and causes as a template and working from there.
Also, crit fishing is really not a thing in PF2. Against anything your level or higher You're going to have like a 10% crit chance at best. Remember, scoring a critical only happens on a natural 20 or when you beat AC by 10.
Remember, a 10th level fighter has a to hit bonus of about 21. A CR 10 enemy has an AC of about 29. So you hit on an 8, but in order to crit you need to roll an 18. So in this specific circumstance you have a 15% crit chance.
Gone are the days or 18-20 crit range weapons with improved critical for a 30% crit chance.
And this is against on level enemy. Higher level enemies have higher AC, and so your chances decrease. You basically never crit against bosses, except on a nat 20.
It honestly sucks pretty hard because there all these interesting things that can happen on a crit, which basically never show up because crits rarely happen.
I really wish that for the purposes of cool stuff (besides increased damage) happening that there was a way to increase your effective crit range.
Also, I would strongly caution against giving Frost legendary in weapons. That gives you VERY little room to work with giving them flavorful Death Knight abilities.
Legendary in armor for Blood might also be a poor idea, because you can give them other means of being resilient plus bonus flavor abilities. However, if you did stick with Legendary in armor, I think Paladin gives you a good idea of what kind of utility you can expect to balance that with.
Frost could be based on ranger/fighter feats to make tons of hits, of course i can also change the skin of feats to give them cold vibes and add others.
Evil champs have resilience (selfish shield) and have legendary armor, i can't use barbs because thei do have rage bonus damage and lower AC. Im afraid if i don't give them legendary armor i have to make up for it by making feats or features to realy compansate that.
Perhaps using magus as top ending at master is not a bad idea, blood will take resilient feats and features, frost damage and weapon oriented and Unholy will be more focus spells oriented.
This is what i came up with:
At first Level:
Death Knights Curse
All death knights are inflicted with an "addiction" of sorts; referred to as the "eternal hunger" by Highlord Darion Mograine and as the "endless hunger" by the dread Instructor Razuvious. A death knight will feel immeasurable pain and agony if it is not inflicting suffering and/or death on a regular basis, if you can’t do this within a week of your last kill, you will become wounded 1, this wounded condition does not stack with itself, meaning, that if you spent a month without killing you will still be wounded 1, you can still increase your wounded by other means. While you are in pain and agony you cannot remove any wounded condition. Joining battles where at least one enemy has died counts for this purpose, the death knight does not need to be the one to make the last hit.
Death Knights are undead, which means you are harmed by positive damage and healed by negative effects, you can still be healed normally by medicine. Unlike other undead you are not destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, use dying rules normally. You still need to breathe, eat and sleep.
Rune Weapon
The souls of those you have slain are forever trapped inside your blade. The rune weapon is the source of your powers, if it is destroyed, you lose your focus pool, any undead minion under your command turns into dust and you can’t use abilities that have the runic trait. You keep any other Death Knight abilities that don’t have the runic trait. You can create a new rune weapon or change rune weapon by doing the Rune Carving ritual. At the end of a week, where you can’t wield your Rune Weapon, you become doomed 1, if you already have doomed increase that value by 1. Once every week you increase this doomed value by one. While you have no Rune Weapon you cannot decrease your doomed value, not even by magic.
At first level you can choose a Slashing weapon in your possession to be your Rune weapon, this weapon was used to take your life and turn you into a Death Knight. Add the parry weapon trait to this weapon if it does not have it already.
Please correct me if any mispelling or bad choice of words, english is not my native language. Continue next post
Runic Path
Blood:
In undeath, some death knights find a special affinity for the blood and bone of the living. They carve into their enemies, sustaining themselves with deadly sanguine strikes, while using the bloody, shattered remains of the dead to fortify their own defenses. These crimson-soaked knights bend the very rules of mortality to control the frontlines of the battlefield. A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain themselves in the face of an enemy onslaught.
1st: you gain the blood shield reaction and touch of corruption devotion spell.
Blood Shield
Uncommon Death Knight
Trigger While wielding your weapon defensively with parry and an enemy within 15 feet damages you.
By hardening the blood within you to protect yourself from harm, you gain resistance against the triggering damage equal to your constitution modifier + half your level (minimum 1), regardless of damage type.
Frost:
Combining martial prowess with supernatural cold, frost death knights leave their enemies chilled to the bone—and broken of the will to fight. Unlike mages who learn to harness frost magic to great effect, these death knights are born of it, rime gripping their decaying hearts. These frozen undead warriors wield dual blades to strike with ferocity and inflict deathly cold upon anyone who would stand against them. An icy harbinger of doom, channeling runic power and delivering vicious weapon strikes.
1st: you gain Frost Strikes action, which lets you freeze the weapon in your hands and touch of corruption devotion spell.
Frost Strikes
Free action, once per round
You imbue the rune weapon in your hands with the cold of death, your next melee strike you also deal additional 1d6 cold damage, at 11th level, the extra damage increases to 2d6, and at 19th, the extra damage increases to 3d6.
Special: If you are wielding a two-handed weapon, increase this damage dice to d8, if you have more than 1 runic weapon, frost strike also applies to that weapon, as long as you are wielding it.
Unholy:
While free from the Lich King’s grasp, some death knights still embody the ever-corrupting nature of the Scourge plague that once threatened to consume Azeroth. No matter their allegiance or cause, they remain defilers of life; and nowhere is their callousness more on display than when threatened. Inflictors of the most aggressive of diseases—and masters of raising unhallowed minions from the ground—these unholy death knights are vicious melee combatants, capable of striking with the force of an undead legion and unleashing pestilence that would bring their foes to ruin. A master of death and decay, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do their bidding.
1st: While holding your rune weapon with one hand, once per turn you can change your grip by adding a hand to the rune weapon as a free action, you gain attack of opportunity reaction and touch of corruption devotion spell
I will be using champion as basic, but without the legendary armor for this class and i am still thinking if making the Subclasses with different proficiencies like the cleric doctrine even necessary or worth it. The Death Knight is also Untrained in any Ranged Weapon.
Blood i took from Selfish shield from champion, Frost based on Hunters Edge, and Unholy i though of it as something that lets you cast a spell and put your hand at your blade again (giving the casters vibe)