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Would it be possible for Paizo to provide easily editable chronicle sheets ?
Nothing in sight at the moment, but here's yesterday's thread with suggestions.
Shameless plug: the DocHub extension for Google Drive is just as fast as any form fillable PDF, with added options. Takes me 1-2 minutes per Chronicle Sheet, including save times.
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Is it possible? Yes
Has Paizo demonstrated any interest in this despite it being a requested topic for many years? No
could be produced by Paizo way more easily than it is for GMs to create, and would allow formidable gain of time when reporting
I disagree. Easier to complete chronicle sheets wouldn't affect reporting as they are two independent activities. Given the way Paizo shares all their products across multiple departments from development to art, to layout, to editing, etc. I am fairly sure I can extract a chronicle sheet, complete it using text boxes and send it to my players faster than they could produce a from-fillable document. YMMV
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This has been asked for many times. Something to keep in mind is that every chronicle that they produce will need to have the converstion process done to make it "easily editable". The process to this that up is far from easy, and truthfully, something that doesn't bring the company any revenue.
yes, it is tedious. But once you get your process down, it is pretty straight forward.
Nefreet, I need to get information about the DocHub thing. Can you PM me on Discord? Thanks.
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Why is the immediate assumption that Paizo would have to do it with their paid staff, and that it would have to be done for every Chronicle?
Why not just crowdsource this, and upload it into a central repository?
If people create fillable PDFs, all Paizo has to do is agree not to prosecute a central repository (assuming the very act of creating a fillable PDF doesn't fall under fair use or derivative work, which is probably where I'd start an investigation if I had the technical chops to do this).
Keep in mind that from PFS2E Season 2, the boon texts (probably the most copyrightable aspect) aren't even on the Chronicles.
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The OP asked for Paizo to provide.
As long as you don't charge for a fallible PDF, you will not be sued. I have made a number of them for Starfinder when it first came out and I know are still in use. Just added the required language at the bottom.
Nothing is stopping someone from doing this. Because no one has should show you how much of a task it is.
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Nefreet, I need to get information about the DocHub thing. Can you PM me on Discord? Thanks.
I'll just post it here so everyone else can learn, too ^_^
DocHub recently lowered the number of documents you can freely edit down to just 5 in a 24 hour period, but you can edit and download the same document an unlimited number of times in that period (so GMs can issue all of their Chronicles worry free). But that does mean that if you want to convert or edit a bunch of your PC's Chronicles, you'll have to pace your work.
As always, practice makes perfect, but in my experience this has been about as fast as I could ever hope for.
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Oh, and, initially it might seem annoying that a certain line of text doesn't line up where you want it to. It doesn't happen to me often, but no software is glitch free. To mitigate that, simply click once on the icon you use to position the text, and use your keyboard arrows (or Shift+Arrow) to finetune adjust its placement.
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Nothing is stopping someone from doing this. Because no one has should show you how much of a task it is.
This is a non sequitur, there are plenty of other explanations why nobody has done it.
But even if it were a lot of work, why is the instinctive response to defend Paizo's corporate practices than to ask if they're volunteering?
If everyone who asked for them were asked to pitch in, the small fraction of people who accepted would probably have finished the task already.
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No offense to you, Nefreet, but all of that seems like a lot more work than just doing the trick with FoxIt. It certainly has more steps. Though I admit I am bias since I am familiar with the existing procedure and not with the ones you posted. I hope your effort works for all the people who are dissatisfied with the FoxIt solution or the ones who will take advantage of Watery Soup's upcoming effort and between these three options the entire community (or at least as much as possible) is satisfied so this topic stops being a reoccurring issue.
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As far as I know, chronicle sheets aren't covered by IP anyway. Think about it. We are already printing that page (real of digital) and sharing it for free with at least six other people with Paizo's permission. I don't know that they would have a leg to stand on legally to try and claim they have financial rights to that singular page of the product. You might want to add the disclaimer language to be safe, otherwise, I see nothing stopping the community from doing as requested for all the chronicle sheets and either making them available through the GM Resources site or the org play website.
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By the way, I must be hungry, because I read the title of this thread as 'Edible Chronicle Sheets.'
I did the same thing!
I won’t actually do this, but I am kinda amused by the idea of getting a cake with a photoprinting of a chronicle sheet on it to celebrate a group finishing something big. Maybe for the final chronicle of Eyes of the Ten or something similar.
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No offense to you, Nefreet, but all of that seems like a lot more work than just doing the trick with FoxIt.
How many steps does FoxIt take?
It may seem like a lot, because I explained what buttons to push, but in practicality every Chronicle after the first is only 1 additional step (inputting player information).
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Like I said, its probably not as bad as I think it is, just "feels" like a lot more work. Not sure how many steps you would call this, but...
All I do is open the scenario, scroll to the chronicle page and create text boxes for each of the data points I have to add. Its just a matter of clicking on an icon, then where I want the box and typing the data. Once that is complete, I print (just the current page) to PDF which brings up a save as menu. That creates a new file but leaves the original open so I can then double click each text box and write in the info for the next player from the reporting sheet. Rinse-Repeat. I can do all six sheets in just a few minutes and then its just a matter of either attaching the new files to emails to the players or posting them in a PM in Discord.
Future events are even easier because I can save the text boxes in the scenario so the next time I run it, the boxes are already there and all I have to do is edit them. If I know I am going to assign credit to one of my PCs, I can work up the "original" with my information in advance and just edit it after the session.
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Sounds good Soup, let us know when you are done. I wouldn't expect you to have all the chronicles done at the same time, but we would appreciate it if you notify us as they are made available and what the links are. Thanks for your effort!
Like many other things, I've probably offered at one point or another, and rescinded the offer when it was clear that it was being actively discouraged.
I didn't invent the intellectual property argument - when I brought it up, someone told me that I couldn't edit the sheets because they were Paizo intellectual property. I've always suspected that was a spurious argument, and when I asked Paizo about it, they were extremely cagey with their response. I shrugged and moved on.
People generally only offer once, so the Org Play habit of responding to every suggestion with "this has been brought up a million times before" and "Paizo doesn't have time to do it" is a great way to make sure there's nobody volunteering for anything unless they've signed a legal document with Paizo.
The next thread, instead of immediately explaining why people can't do something, posters - especially the Venture People - should probably see it as an opportunity to recruit a volunteer rather than play whack-a-mole with commonly recurring suggestions.
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Not sure how many steps you would call this, but...
Oh cool. That is basically the same as DocHub. I suppose you don't have to delete the other pages as I suggested, but I like to have a "Blank Chronicle" file for future use. Smaller file size.
I just kept getting the impression everytime someone mentions FoxIt that it leaves something to be desired.
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I can do all six sheets in just a few minutes
I don't see the speed to be the biggest benefit of a fillable form, but rather, accuracy.
This ties in with another massively-multiplayer recurring thread, The Speed At Which Events Are Reported. Specifically, in the current paper method, there's an absurd number of information transfers - a player writes it on a form, the GM takes the form and gives it to a Venture Whatever, the Venture Whatever reads the paper form, and then types that number into the Paizo site. When the system breaks down, it's always unclear where it broke down.
In parallel, GMs fill out the Chronicles independently of the information that's submitted. So, on occasion, there are mismatches when someone's paper Chronicle says something different than what was put into the website.
Having people put in their information electronically saves a whole bunch of reading/writing/losing physical slips of paper errors. Not all, but enough to make it worth some amount of effort.
The ideal system would be one where players punch in their PFS information, and the system autofills as an immediate check as to whether they've put in their information correctly; the data is put in automatically into designated fields, and at the end of the scenario, the GM just clicks a button saying the scenario completed - the scenario is instantly reported on the site (and players can instantly retrieve their Chronicle boons if they want) and the Chronicles are sent out simultaneously. Most importantly, there's no mismatch between the Chronicle and the Paizo reporting site, and there's no telephone game between the player/GM/VO/website.
Am I good enough with Python to volunteer to do this? No.
But I'm absolutely certain that there are people who play Pathfinder Society who are capable of writing the code, and I'm pretty sure that if someone were to ask them nicely, they'd do it for free (or for AcP).
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The issue has never been getting volunteers to do the legwork, write the code, or whatever else "labor" has to be done to enact the suggestion. The community has offered to "fix" pregens when there were errors. The community has offered to update PFS1 season zero scenarios from v3.5 to PF1E. The community has offered to covert PF1E material to PF2E. The community has offered to fix errors in scenarios. Etc. Etc. Etc. Paizo has rejected these offers every single time for more than a decade.
Paizo is the ultimate gatekeeper for the products. They have a very specific process by which they perform their work. It involves all the departments from org play to IT. No product whether new or updated is released until all the departments sign off approval. No matter how easy or hard, quick or lengthy the process is, they simply will not allow our community to do it. Period. Full stop.
Now, each of us can chose to dis/like it and/or we can chose to accept it or argue about its merits, but the simple fact is, they will not allow it. If you have a great idea for crowdsourcing form-fillable chronicles, do not expect Paizo to support, because they won't, not even if we were to do all the work.
That being said, unless/until someone can show otherwise, I believe my comment upthread is accurate and the more I consider it and read about IP online, the more I am convinced of it. There does not appear to be anything stopping the community from extracting the chronicle sheet from the scenario, modifying it to be form fillable, adding the community use disclaimer, and sharing it for free through the GM Shared Prep website or whatever other free-access host site you prefer to use. I'm sure a lot of people in the community would appreciate the effort.
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As far as I know, chronicle sheets aren't covered by IP anyway. Think about it. We are already printing that page (real of digital) and sharing it for free with at least six other people with Paizo's permission. I don't know that they would have a leg to stand on legally to try and claim they have financial rights to that singular page of the product. You might want to add the disclaimer language to be safe, otherwise, I see nothing stopping the community from doing as requested for all the chronicle sheets and either making them available through the GM Resources site or the org play website.
This is incorrect. They are covered by IP with license to modify and distribute under certain limited circumstances.
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Not sure how many steps you would call this, but...Oh cool. That is basically the same as DocHub. I suppose you don't have to delete the other pages as I suggested, but I like to have a "Blank Chronicle" file for future use. Smaller file size.
I just kept getting the impression everytime someone mentions FoxIt that it leaves something to be desired.
I have a certain dislike of FOxit after early versions were bundled with some fairly invasive "shareware"
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Sounds good Soup, let us know when you are done. I wouldn't expect you to have all the chronicles done at the same time, but we would appreciate it if you notify us as they are made available and what the links are. Thanks for your effort!The next thread, instead of immediately explaining why people can't do something, posters - especially the Venture People - should probably see it as an opportunity to recruit a volunteer rather than play whack-a-mole with commonly recurring suggestions.
Umm... The only other VO in this thread said:
Nothing is stopping someone from doing this. Because no one has should show you how much of a task it is.
No one is playing whack a mole. But no one is organizing it because frankly, the VO corp has it's hands full with the projects we *are* doing.
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No offense to you, Nefreet, but all of that seems like a lot more work than just doing the trick with FoxIt.How many steps does FoxIt take?
It may seem like a lot, because I explained what buttons to push, but in practicality every Chronicle after the first is only 1 additional step (inputting player information).
It is likely that most procedures require the most work for the initial chronicle with the follow-up chronicles being much faster.
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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I just use Acrobat Reader's Free Fill & Sign tool. I fill out the chronicle, print only that page to PDF, then edit the fields to the next person and repeat. It even allows me to create a custom signature as a stamp I can place wherever, when we still used signatures.
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no one is organizing it because frankly, the VO corp has it's hands full with the projects we *are* doing.
The most efficient workflow would be Paizo staff doing work only Paizo can do, VOs doing work only VOs can do, and other volunteers doing other stuff.
All the peanut gallery (myself included) really need is empowerment.
I was willing to put in a certain amount of time to convert the PDFs. All it really would have taken is someone to say honestly what TwilightKnight said sarcastically above, and at least a few seasons would have been done by now. Instead it was - and still is - a mishmash of reasons why nobody can.
If Paizo doesn't let people do it, then that's an insurmoutable barrier and a good reason why this task can't be done. But, at the same time, it becomes irrelevant how busy Paizo is or how busy the VOs are.
In one sentence, what is the rate-limiting barrier to this task getting done - Paizo, VOs, or person-power?
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I can do all six sheets in just a few minutesI don't see the speed to be the biggest benefit of a fillable form, but rather, accuracy.
This ties in with another massively-multiplayer recurring thread, The Speed At Which Events Are Reported. Specifically, in the current paper method, there's an absurd number of information transfers - a player writes it on a form, the GM takes the form and gives it to a Venture Whatever, the Venture Whatever reads the paper form, and then types that number into the Paizo site. When the system breaks down, it's always unclear where it broke down.
In parallel, GMs fill out the Chronicles independently of the information that's submitted. So, on occasion, there are mismatches when someone's paper Chronicle says something different than what was put into the website.
Having people put in their information electronically saves a whole bunch of reading/writing/losing physical slips of paper errors. Not all, but enough to make it worth some amount of effort.
The ideal system would be one where players punch in their PFS information, and the system autofills as an immediate check as to whether they've put in their information correctly; the data is put in automatically into designated fields, and at the end of the scenario, the GM just clicks a button saying the scenario completed - the scenario is instantly reported on the site (and players can instantly retrieve their Chronicle boons if they want) and the Chronicles are sent out simultaneously. Most importantly, there's no mismatch between the Chronicle and the Paizo reporting site, and there's no telephone game between the player/GM/VO/website.
Am I good enough with Python to volunteer to do this? No.
But I'm absolutely certain that there are people who play Pathfinder Society who are capable of writing the code, and I'm pretty sure that if someone were to ask them nicely, they'd do it for free (or for AcP).
What you talking about now is MUCH bigger than making a PDF fillable.
You're asking about the Paizo website producing the chronicle for you. While it would seem simple, it is not. Anything IT related is a challenge for Paizo. Why? Because they are a game publisher, not a software company. We, as users of their products, want them to focus on their core competence and not try to branch out. Yeah, they could enter into an agreement with someone, but that costs money, thus reducing their profit.
But as you said, this would be ideal so it is not likely to ever happen.
So moving back to fillable PDFs. If you want a VO support your effort, I am willing to offer my support. What do you need? Do you have the necessary software to work with PDFs?
Be forwarded, converting a PDF to be fillable is not easy. And there are 75 chronicles that would need to be done for 2e. That said, the total likely reaches 1,000+ of all 3 systems.
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You're asking about the Paizo website producing the chronicle for you.
It doesn't need to be on Paizo's website.
Computer programmers could write programs that interface with Paizo's servers. I think they're called APIs but don't quote me on that. They're the same types of programs that search airline sites to find the best price or snipe auctions on eBay. At my last workplace, we had a programmer in house that developed a bunch of these programs.
So the program would pull autofill data from Paizo's site, and would be connected to a Gmail account or Drive or something to export the messages.
You're overall right, it's not easy. It's a task. But I'm not sure Paizo or the VO team would be the limiting factor.
What do you need? Do you have the necessary software to work with PDFs?
To be clear, I am no longer volunteering.
But back when I did volunteer, I thought I'd need a copy of Adobe Acrobat or Foxit Phantom (not just their respective Readers), which I would have been happy to buy myself, and a blank copy of the Chronicle (I'm not a subscriber so I don't have all the scenarios). I estimated probably 10 hours to get the first one done and 0.5-1 hour per sheet after that (this assumes that I make a major mistake and needed to redo the first 10 or so). I don't play Starfinder so a partner who would work on SFS Chronicles in parallel would have been great. I assumed I would be allowed to upload them to existing repositories like pfsprep.
The main ask of a VO would have been to definitively sort out the IP issue. Sinking in time to do it only to get cease and desist letters from Paizo's lawyers (or hearing that pfsprep got served) would have been bad.
The main draw of soliciting a broad base of volunteers is that someone is bound to know a better way to do it - I didn't know about DocHub, and I might have been mistaken about Readers being able to do it.
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Soup, you definitely don’t need more than Acrobat Reader or free FoxIt reader to create an editable form. It would not be for -fillable per say, but personally I don’t like the limitations of form fillable anyway. And it would not take more than ten minutes at the absolute maximum to create the document. Course you may have to use the same reader program to edit as was used to create it which is not quite as utilitarian as a form fillable.
I think the point of all this is that the effort needed to use existing procedures to create distributable chronicles is not a burden. I suspect that most people who gripe about it just don’t know how or haven’t invested a few minutes to learn it. For casual GMs it wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t know how to do it. I’m a regular user of this website and the Guide and still often have trouble finding what I’m looking for.
You mentioned what it would take to make it integral to the Paizo website. It would require Paizo’s participation and approval. Something they are simply not willing to provide. That really is the part people need to understand. It doesn’t matter how reasonable your idea is, they will not allow an outside e tiny access to their databases and/or underlying scripting.
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There does not appear to be anything stopping the community from extracting the chronicle sheet from the scenario, modifying it to be form fillable, adding the community use disclaimer, and sharing it for free through the GM Shared Prep website or whatever other free-access host site you prefer to use. I'm sure a lot of people in the community would appreciate the effort.
Part of the original approval for pfsprep specifically excludes the hosting of chronicle sheets.
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okay, well I guess somewhere else then. Dunno. We are already approved to "share" that page with at least six players who do not own nor paid for the product from which it came, so I don't think Paizo has much of a claim of IP rights with respect to it. Kinda hard to approve people to share it while not allowing people to share it.
Regardless, this topic has yet again been beaten to death.
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Guess you rather sit on the sidelines and complain and offer comments on how you could do it better.
That's probably the case. It has nothing to do with the fact that not even in this thread have people agreed whether Paizo's legal team would even allow it.
It also has nothing to do with events of the past 9 months: Paizo's removing boons from Chronicles and de-emphasizing paper Chronicles over site reporting, or GMs being forced to learn during pandemic so that poorly-scanned, handwritten Chronicles aren't as popular (the main impetus for my offer was because I was getting a lot of illegible Chronicles).
It definitely has nothing to do with people like you, since you've so helpfully offered to do the one task that actually requires VO input.
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There does not appear to be anything stopping the community from extracting the chronicle sheet from the scenario, modifying it to be form fillable, adding the community use disclaimer, and sharing it for free through the GM Shared Prep website or whatever other free-access host site you prefer to use. I'm sure a lot of people in the community would appreciate the effort.Part of the original approval for pfsprep specifically excludes the hosting of chronicle sheets.
I wonder, though, whether that original agreement could be amended now, since Chronicles from both Campaigns no longer contain any Boons, so "Chronicle fishing" isn't really a worry anymore.
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okay, well I guess somewhere else then. Dunno. We are already approved to "share" that page with at least six players who do not own nor paid for the product from which it came, so I don't think Paizo has much of a claim of IP rights with respect to it. Kinda hard to approve people to share it while not allowing people to share it.
Regardless, this topic has yet again been beaten to death.
IP holders can grant sharing for specific uses while withholding sharing for others. That is how copyright works. That is the whole point behind the creative commons license.
Please do not encourage people to commit piracy.
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I wonder, though, whether that original agreement could be amended now, since Chronicles from both Campaigns no longer contain any Boons, so "Chronicle fishing" isn't really a worry anymore.There does not appear to be anything stopping the community from extracting the chronicle sheet from the scenario, modifying it to be form fillable, adding the community use disclaimer, and sharing it for free through the GM Shared Prep website or whatever other free-access host site you prefer to use. I'm sure a lot of people in the community would appreciate the effort.Part of the original approval for pfsprep specifically excludes the hosting of chronicle sheets.
They still contain story spoilers. So I am not sure.
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That is a good point. According to the property page of the scenario...
"Product Identity: The following items are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Game Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper nouns (characters, deities, locations, etc., as well as all adjectives, names, titles, and descriptive terms derived from proper nouns), artworks, characters, dialogue, locations, organizations, plots, storylines, and trade dress. (Elements that have previously been designated as Open Game Content, or are exclusively derived from previous Open Game Content, or that are in the public domain are not included in this declaration.)"
followed by...
"Open Game Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity, the game mechanics of this Paizo game product are Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(d). No portion of this work other than the material designated as Open Game Content may be reproduced in any form without written permission."
So, since the chronicle sheet contains the scenario summary which includes proper nouns, names, characters, etc. it would therefore be protected which technically means we cannot share it. However, it seems that is not the case, or Paizo is simply choosing not to enforce it with regards to the chronicle sheet. The latter is a problem because if for some reason this issue would go to court, most lawyers could easily prove that since Paizo has chosen not to enforce their property rights and gave at least passive permission, or perhaps even implicit permission, there wouldn't be anything they could do about anyone sharing that page.
IP holders can grant sharing for specific uses while withholding sharing for others.
You obviously know more about this than I do. Can you provide any source material that indicates its okay to share the chronicle sheet with the six players at your table, but not with anyone else? I've looked though the community use materials and cannot locate any such language. In fact, I cannot locate any language that would allow the chronicle sheet to be shared with the players.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just interested where this actually stands. The more I look into it, the less confident I am that there is any clarity to the issue at all.
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You obviously know more about this than I do. Can you provide any source material that indicates its okay to share the chronicle sheet with the six players at your table, but not with anyone else?
You just quoted the material that says you are not allowed to share it in general.
The specific instructions in filling out a chronicle instruct you to share it in specific circumstances. That constitutes written permission and dictates the situations in which you can share it.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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I mean, have you ever read the blurb on the scenario page, or looked at the front cover of one =\
This is why I don't read blurbs. Also the cover image for:
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a cake with a photoprinting of a chronicle sheet on it to celebrate a group finishing something big. Maybe for the final chronicle of Eyes of the Ten or something similar.This is a genius idea
To be truly cruel*, give each player their chronicle for completeing the adventure, printed on a slice of cake.
Make them chose between having their chronicle, and eating their cake...