No, you missed no information, other than her explaining in general that she had set herself up on Madripoor after she went on the run and self-exiled herself there. She was definitely there on purpose. My personal guess is she is working undercover for the CIA to bring down Power Broker, and showed up when she heard Zemo had escaped and was coming to meet with one of the Power Broker's contacts. I think the lady she met with at the end of the episode was a fellow CIA agent.
Other fans think she is the Power Broker, or think she is an ally of the Flag Smashers.
Was anyone else kind of mad at some lazy writing about Morgenthau and the Flag Smashers in Ep 3?
But Morgenthau blows up a building knowing full well that there are helpless people inside, and her justification is "that's the only language they understand."
Wow.
Setting aside the obvious moral argument: Killing innocent people is the worst PR move possible for a leftist organization.
That scene says to me that the writers thought, "We know the bad guys don't seem so bad, so let's have them do something moustache-twirlingly evil just to make sure the audience is on board that they're BAAAD."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Was anyone else kind of mad at some lazy writing about Morgenthau and the Flag Smashers in Ep 3?
** spoiler omitted **
As Erskine said: "The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen; because a strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power. But a weak man, knows the value of strength and knows compassion."
Schmidt went from desiring power to hungering for dominion because of it, Blonsky went from desiring the strength to fight to craving the strength to annihilate because of it.
A woman who is willing to steal power from a hardened criminal to achieve her goals may have a noble goal planned - but her means are corrupt and the serum will amplify that impulse to put the cause itself above all other concerns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think, and at least hope, dirtypool is right.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Using this logic Steve should be a complete monster of a mass murderer because he kills bad guys..
What? The premise was that the serum amplifies who you were deep down before you took it. Scrawny Steve Rogers never killed any bad guys, and for it to be something the serum could amplify “killing bad guys” would have to have been a personality trait pre-serum.
Morgenthau is willing to sacrifice principle for her cause, Steve is unwilling to sacrifice his principles.
Yes, the whole point is Erskine chose Steve because he didn't want to hurt people. Even with his goal being to stop bullies, he never, say, decided to get a gun and shoot down the guys who used to beat him up all the time in Brooklyn (even though many might argue his doing so would be understandable); he tried to fight fair even though he was going to get his ass kicked. He had a strong sense of ethics and that was amplified with the rest of him. Steve's priority was always foremost to end suffering for all in a genuine way.
The fact that Karli was, pre-serum, willing to hurt and steal to achieve her goal, meant that amplified, her lack of ethics would also be amplified. Even if she too wants to end suffering for someone, she is willing to cause suffering for others to get it, and this tendency would be amplified by the serum.
|
Was anyone else kind of mad at some lazy writing about Morgenthau and the Flag Smashers in Ep 3?
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, I thought that action was a little off for the way they had been portraying the group. In the comics, as I recall, Flag-Smasher was a kind of anti-nationalist (at the time, I thought anarchist) who wanted to do away with the concept of nations completely. He was more than willing to engage in some violent activity to achieve his goals. With this latest move, the MCU seems intent on making the TV version more like the comics version.
My guess is they'll move in one of two directions: the group leader(s) had a hidden agenda to start with, or the whole "absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing.
DP: I hope your theory is right.
On a related note: One thing that does temper my enthusiasm about the MCU in general is how much US military propaganda is baked into it.
This is starting to cross into politics, so I'll try to tread lightly...
Marvel makes the military look really, really cool... even when they're doing shady things. Sometimes especially so.
As for blatant propaganda, US Air Force was a paid consultant for Captain Marvel, and part of the deal of granting the filmmakers access was to use the resulting film as a recruiting tool.
It was successful in that effort.
That said, yes, they have painted some of what that military does in a bad light, but it's usually pinned on one or more individual bad actors.
Marvel has a pretty long history of working with the US military and painting them in a mostly-positive light.
And on a related note: I thought it was interesting that several US media outlets were extremely critical of a news item earlier this week that China requires movie theatres to show a minimum amount of pro-Chinese propaganda... while at the same time no critique of how American media is so steeped in pro-US propaganda. (See: Patriotism on parade and Air Force flyovers at the start of every NFL game; CBS TV's line-up of NCIS/NCIS spin-offs/Seal Team/FBI/FBI:Most Wanted/SWAT/Blue Bloods...)
As for blatant propaganda, US Air Force was a paid consultant for Captain Marvel, and part of the deal of granting the filmmakers access was to use the resulting film as a recruiting tool.
That's not actually unique in that regard. Most films that feature the US Military prominently have military consultants on set, generally the trade off is access to military vehicles in exchange for recruitment advertisements. It's very common.
|
A woman who is willing to steal power from a hardened criminal to achieve her goals may have a noble goal planned - but her means are corrupt and the serum will amplify that impulse to put the cause itself above all other concernsUsing this logic Steve should be a complete monster of a mass murderer because he kills bad guys.
Huh?????
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At the same time, the blatant sexism that women often face in the military was also portrayed repeatedly in Captain Marvel. It's actually a plot point--Maria and Carol were flying the missions for Project Pegasus because they couldn't get other assignments as female pilots. And it makes sense for Brie to train with actual Air Force pilots, which she did, to play an Air Force pilot well. Hard to do that without their cooperation. Yes, the fact that it was also used for a recruitment boost sticks in my craw too, but it was certainly at least not portrayed as a perfect, incorrupt thing.
Speaking especially as someone with the word "Quaker" in my username, I am generally not keen on seeing the military be glorified either. At the same time, for the most part I feel like the way they are used in a superhero-action universe makes sense. My sense from Marvel is that individual characters who are members of the military are often portrayed sympathetically (but not all of them, see for example Walker or many of the soldiers in Captain America: TFA), while the bureaucracy and the power struggles are shown to be easily corrupted (I don't see the only a few "bad actors" thing--to me it seems like where the problems lie indeed are institutional, like, again, the limited options Carol and Maria had, or the struggles they have shown that veterans have through both Sam's story and Bucky's). I feel like that's fair enough for what they are attempting to do.
I think it's good to point out the flaws in this but I feel like there is more grey area here than black and white.
As for blatant propaganda, US Air Force was a paid consultant for Captain Marvel, and part of the deal of granting the filmmakers access was to use the resulting film as a recruiting tool.That's not actually unique in that regard. Most films that feature the US Military prominently have military consultants on set, generally the trade off is access to military vehicles in exchange for recruitment advertisements. It's very common.
Very true.
The remaining comments I'm inclined to make on this subject are blatantly political, so I'll keep those opinions on Twitter rather than here.
Just watched ep 4 on my lunch hour.
Wow.
The first three eps didn't really grab me, but it has my attention now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The ending was somehow expected and yet shocking--very good filming, very grim moment.
I really liked a lot of the dialogue with Karli and Sam and a lot of what Sam did in general.
The flashback of Bucky...
The guy that Walker slaughtered was the one who said he used to look up to Captain America.
I am also seriously bummed about Battlestar. I understand the plot significance of his death, but for a show that's tried to be very aware of race issues, this strongly smacked of the Dead Black Best Friend Trope, with a touch of minority sidekick in the Refrigerator to boot.
I would like more Sharon, please (but I liked what we got).
In Defense of keeping Zemo around he is making their job faster and easier. He is basically plowing through every barrier, He seems to be fully cooperating. Additionally he seems legitimately terrified of Bucky (considering he knows his history and his thing about super soldiers that's not surprising.) He is basically the guy getting things done.
|
|
Well, that was....intense.
So, now it's confirmed. Much as with the comics, Walker was created solely to have a Cap who goes off the deep end, tarnishing the image and forcing someone else to take it back. Sad. I was kind of hoping they'd treat him a bit better this time.
Still, it begs the question - he seemed to be a nice, all-American guy. As of this episode, we know he had doubts about himself, especially based on some of the things he had to do in combat. We also know, from the Civil War movie, the Rogers and Company did some pretty scary stuff back in WWII. So...if Steve had seen some of that combat, and done some of that "scary stuff", BEFORE taking the serum, would it have affected how he turned out?
Which also brings the question of Karli further into play. Between her actions last episode, and her actions and words this episode, it seems the serum has amplified some of her darker nature. I'm wondering if they'll give more detail on what she might have done, or what might have been done to her, to corrupt her.
Another last question - I wonder if Zemo intentionally left one vial of serum. correctly predicting what Walker would do with it and how it would affect him. He might, if it served his overall purpose of destroying superheroes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fact that Zemo, the man who succeeded in many major events that helped tear the Avengers apart and leaving them in a bad position to be successful come Infinity war, is the one getting things done is exactly the reason they should ditch him. Zemo would argue, like his favorite author Machiavelli, that the ends justify the means, but should Bucky and Sam?
If Steve was more war-torn before he took the serum would that have changed things? Well, he was getting his ass beat in 1930s Brooklyn every day of his life. The Brooklyn he lived in was decades before the era of cold brew and overpriced bakeries that sell cronuts, but rather was a somewhat hardscrabble place where immigrants struggled to survive. TFA opens with him returning home from his mother's funeral, and I can't remember if is father is dead or just not around. While post-Depression Brooklyn isn't the same kind of trauma that you experience fighting and killing in a war, he had plenty of opportunities to "go dark," be embittered about the world, and want to seek vengeance for all that was unfair about the life he lived. But he didn't.
So I am inclined to say that no, it's unlikely that Steve would have become a murderous rage machine even after becoming a soldier. Of course this is all hypothetical since it was impossible for Steve to otherwise fight in the military because in his health. He was in too poor shape to even be experimented upon like the Conscientious Objectors in the starvation experiments. And this indeed may be in part what separates Steve from John Walker: Steve knows, in a way John Walker can never understand, what it is like to be the "little guy." To be the tiny asthmatic who gets his ass handed to him every day by bigger bullies, and still just stands his ground and doesn't give in. John, someone who achieved the peak of normal human perfection through a mix of lucky genes and training, and who is of a social and demographic class where he is less likely to have struggled because of his standing (and if he did struggle, I feel like they would have mentioned it by now), has absolutely no idea what it is like to be a victim. He was probably the guy who always got picked first for the team, who won all the awards, who got all the perks. Even when Lemar and others try to reassure him, they remind him of things like his earning three medals, not "remember that time you took a beating for me" or something like that. He and others think of his life in terms of things he has won.
The first time, arguably, he has ever sensed loss, felt defeat, felt like the weakest guy in the room, was when he was defeated in this episode by the Dora Milaje--not just defeated by people who, like him, are excellent, highly trained soldiers, armed with vibranium weapons, but black women, who in his society have far less preferential treatment than he does. They are people who, in his mind, should never have been in a position to defeat him so easily, and yet they did. And his immediate response to that humiliation is: take the serum. Find a way to cheat to be able to beat them next time.
Whereas Steve Rogers' response would have been: "I can do this all day."
And that is the difference between John Walker and Steve Rogers.
And I am saying this as somebody who is not a giant fan of Steve, who does not defend him blindly just because he's Captain America. I loved him in TFA, but I do feel the longer he had the serum in him, the more arrogant he became, the more sure of his rightness, the more sure he could make the right call and others couldn't. Nonetheless the core of his nature has been to persist and protect others.
Meanwhile, the core of John Walker's nature is to be the best, to be the person in the room with the most power. All of his amazing accomplishments as a soldier indicate he is less a good person and more an overachiever. Obviously, he has a sense of loyalty and honor, or he would not have earned those medals or protected Lemar. But, to pull the first MCU example I can think of, Dottie Underwood, the evil Black Widow in Agent Carter, is also a stellar soldier for her country who has an extreme sense of loyalty and honor--or if not honor, at least a firm sense of duty. She might have been the kind of person to earn a "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal at the end of WWII. She still also would not hesitate to snap a child's neck if those were her orders, or murder someone for convenience because they are in the way. I am not pulling this example to say that Walker would do the same thing, but to point out that loyalty and honor and devotion to duty are good things, but they themselves do not guarantee morally "good" behavior if the person is not otherwise altruistic at heart. That John Walker has doubts makes him human and I have no doubt that he tried to do the right thing. But I think what drove him was to be the best at all times and that is the source of his fall from grace.
I feel the opposite of many posters here. For some reason this show has not grabbed me yet. I'll keep watching it, since it's the only reason I'm paying for Disney+ at the moment, but I'm not impressed so far.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have more thoughtful things to reply later but just need to s~&*post for a moment:
Suddenly I want a Marvel TV series about grey-area heroes/people thinking they are heroes but are actually murdery/have some kind of division between their higher moral selves and their inner darkness. It would star USAgent, Typhoid Mary, and Hellcat. It would be called:
Walkers: Marvel Rangers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mark Hoover, I am going to reply to your spoiler text unspoilered because it is relevant to this show and it's been a few days I think:
The scene you point out is actually a good comparison of Steve and John because, as others on the internet have pointed out with comparison photos, the image of Steve kneeling over Tony with his shield raised to strike him is very similar to that of John over the Flag Smasher. How differently the two finish that pose speaks volumes to the differences between the two. Especially, I think because there was a moment where Steve almost killed Tony and then controlled himself and took out the arc reactor instead. And then, yes, he gave up the shield because he still felt he had gone too far. I think Steve's flaws brought him to that edge, but he is at his heart a compassionate enough person to overcome that in that moment. (And mind you, we are all flawed; I just get irritated with the treatment of Steve by some Marvel characters as well as real world writers and fans is that he is spoken of as completely incapable of error--which means he is seen as not human and incapable of growth or self-improvement. I think Steve at his best represents the best of humanity, not of superhumans.)
I agree that this show is very good at provoking examinations of our world and the way we see it. Wandavision is indeed more personal and more obscure, and I wish it did a better job of forcing us to ask ourselves: who have I hurt unintentionally while lashing out due to pain or grief? Maybe this show with its more straightforward sociopolitical view helps us see ourselves in the circumstances presented.
|
|
....perhaps the defeat by the Dora Milaje was a brutal humiliation to him, but he doesn't actually go berserk until Battlestar was slain.
They set him on a similar path in the comics. At one point he was defeated and captured by Comic Book Flag-Smasher, only to then be rescued by Steve Rogers (I think). That was the humiliation.
Somewhere along the way, his old friends Left and Right Winger revealed his identity to the public. This led to the death of his parents at the hands of the Watch Dogs (a Red Skull front group). That was the comic episode that pushed him over the edge, and not long after he nearly killed Left and Right Winger (only their super powers saved them).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do enjoy the way they have been echoing moments from the films throughout the series to draw comparison and contrast between the two would be Caps and Cap himself.
Having Sam fight Batroc just as Steve did at the beginning of Winter Soldier to show that both men are capable of beating the skilled Mercenary - without the shield and in Sam’s case without the Super Soldier Serum.
Having both Walker and Steve show their disillusionment with being a propaganda tool - but for very different reasons.
Recasting the initial antagonism between Steve and Tony with Walker and Sam and even twisting the taunt to be more condescending. Steve telling Tony to put on his Iron Man suit to come up to Steve’s level so they could have a fair fight vs Walker offering to set the shield down to come down to Sam’s level for a fair fight.
The fist bump “bro” out of the Truck fight with Walker and Battlestar vs the composed teamwork of the Train fight with Steve and Bucky in First Avenger.
Finally the shield bash to disable Tony’s suit vs the shield bash to kill the Flag Smasher.
All of them and more serve to highlight just how Walker could never be Captain America while Sam is already the true heir to Steve’s role in the MCU whether he is willing to acknowledge it or not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am loving this conversation guys. The series is treading on deep ground and it is amazing to see what they are doing with it.
One of the moments that struck me was Lamar telling John how "power just makes a person more themselves," a direct reflection of Erskine's speech about how, "the serum amplifies everything that is inside; so good becomes great, bad becomes worse."
The writers have done themselves proud with making all the parallels without overtly beating us to death with them. Great job.
I do however agree with DQ on the lazy writing when it comes to Zemo. Well, nothing's perfect.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe Walker was always a bit unhinged, not the most "reliable narrator" to begin with; perhaps the defeat by the Dora Milaje was a brutal humiliation to him, but he doesn't actually go berserk until Battlestar was slain.
To clarify my own statement, the humiliation of defeat is why Walker took the serum (not did anything after). And here we're not going into the fact that he was extraordinarily dishonorable in finding it, hiding it, and taking it without telling anyone. Given recovering the serum and returning it to the American government was probably among his orders--and even if they weren't, I would think duty would generally demand the return of any recovered stolen contraband--he was already failing to do his duty and behaving deceptively and dishonorably before any serum got in him. This impulse would then be amplified by the serum.
(Also, think about it--Zemo resists the temptation and holds to his principles, but Walker doesn't? I still think it's a little hypocritical of Sam and Bucky to be willing to work with Zemo and not Walker [before getting to know him], but to an extent, as much as I know their alliance with Zemo is going to go very badly, maybe he at least still is the better man of the two. That's sad. Especially because yeah, Walker is so much set up to be the "right" kind of person for the job he was given. And then we see how he's not.)
Dirtypool, I hadn't noticed those parallels but yeah, it looks like as Feros says, a lot of this has been constructed very carefully.
I still think it's a little hypocritical of Sam and Bucky to be willing to work with Zemo and not Walker
I don't see how it's hypocritical. They need information that will get them to Karli and allow them to deal with the Flag Smashers. Zemo had intel, Walker had none. Zemo had a philosophical disagreement with the Flag Smashers that could be manipulated, Walker just wanted to grandstand.
I also think calling whatever arrangement they have with Zemo as an "alliance" is being overly charitable to what they're doing.
I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
I still think it's a little hypocritical of Sam and Bucky to be willing to work with Zemo and not WalkerI don't see how it's hypocritical. They need information that will get them to Karli and allow them to deal with the Flag Smashers. Zemo had intel, Walker had none. Zemo had a philosophical disagreement with the Flag Smashers that could be manipulated, Walker just wanted to grandstand.
When they met Walker, who was offering a partnership, he was offering the ability to work with the U.S. and their resources. They didn't have to like the guy, but on paper, at least, and based on his initial actions, he seemed to be a soldier handed a lot of authority and clout, doing what he was hired/ordered to do, working in the same direction of inquiry as Sam and Bucky were. The only reason Sam and Bucky refused to work with him is because he was handed the shield (which was not Walker's choice, and as far as he knows this was all part of the deal Sam made when Sam donated the shield). Work with NewCap and Battlestar probably would also gotten them the same information they needed (especially since they all keep ending up in the same place anyway). They chose not to work with him, not because he was morally inept, or that his mission was questionable, or because he had nothing to offer them, but just because he wore a costume that someone else gave him that looks kinda like their buddy Steve's.
That is a foolish reason not to accept aid and resources--not to mention protections from prison when both Sam and Bucky are only free at all because of pardons--when life and death consequences are on the line. They didn't have to like him. And in fact it could have made sense for them to agree to work with him to stay close and make sure he didn't sully the shield.
Meanwhile, when life and death consequences are on the line and working rogue could mean returning to prison for both of them, Bucky decides that the better, more sound, more morally acceptable option than the guy with three medals of honor who happens to be wearing an outfit they don't like, is the man who actively chose to use Bucky as a living weapon to kill and hurt people, bombed the United Nations, killed dozens of leaders and diplomats, and manipulated two of the world's most powerful men into a near-death match. These things are a lot worse than "grandstanding."
I'm sorry but that's just stupid. Actually now that I spell it all out, it's not just stupid, it's morally and ethically unconscionable and if anyone dies at Zemo's hands, Bucky and Sam are accomplices in that act. Oh, several people are already dead, like Nagel, and Bucky and Sam are accomplices in those actual murders that have already happened. Yeah, no. I can understand why the plot is going the way it is, and you are welcome to support Bucky and Sam in their choices, but I cannot.
We can now say with hindsight that working with Walker would have also resulted in them working with an unstable villain, but of all the information they had about Walker at the time, the choice of Zemo as a better idea just does not fly. And indeed... perhaps with Sam and Bucky's guidance, they could have helped walk John away from the edge before it was too late and none of this would have happened.
I also think calling whatever arrangement they have with Zemo as an "alliance" is being overly charitable to what they're doing.
They have protected him several times, often against their own interests. They might not acknowledge it, but they effectively are in an alliance with him.
I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
That is super cool. Love stuff like that!
When they met Walker, who was offering a partnership, he was offering the ability to work with the U.S. and their resources. They didn't have to like the guy, but on paper, at least, and based on his initial actions, he seemed to be a soldier handed a lot of authority and clout, doing what he was hired/ordered to do, working in the same direction of inquiry as Sam and Bucky were.
When they met Walker he was offering the ability to work with the government that Sam already works for; using resources that Sam has access to himself having just used a USAF flight to get him and Bucky to the location. He wasn't offering anything new, but he did admit that he had no leads of his own - so Sam and Bucky held all the cards and he admitted to hacking Red Wing to track Sam.
They chose not to work with him, not because he was morally inept, or that his mission was questionable, or because he had nothing to offer them, but just because he wore a costume that someone else gave him that looks kinda like their buddy Steve's.
That neglects the unauthorized tracking and the admission that Walker wanted to use Sam's leads to help him solve the case.
That is a foolish reason not to accept aid and resources--not to mention protections from prison when both Sam and Bucky are only free at all because of pardons
There was no mention of Sam having received a conditional pardon like Bucky's.
Bucky decides that the better, more sound, more morally acceptable option than the guy with three medals of honor who happens to be wearing an outfit they don't like, is the man who actively chose to use Bucky as a living weapon to kill and hurt people, bombed the United Nations, killed dozens of leaders and diplomats, and manipulated two of the world's most powerful men into a near-death match.
You're drawing a parallel between Zemo and Walker as if Bucky and Sam could get the same intel from Walker that they got from Zemo and Bucky made the choice to use Zemo based purely on his feelings about Walker. But we know that Walker didn't have any of the intel that Zemo provided - Walker said so before Sam and Bucky went their own way and busted out Zemo.
Bucky also made no statements about the soundness of the Zemo plan and he certainly didn't make any statement about the moral acceptability of it. That is something that you are adding to your analysis of his actions.
I'm sorry but that's just stupid.
Letting the investigation stall out completely so that they can assist Walker who has no clue what is going on and has no idea how to get the intel he needs (remember that everything he uncovers in episodes three and four is because he is tailing Sam and Buck - not because he's gathering any real intel of his own) is more stupid.
the choice of Zemo as a better idea just does not fly.
There was not a 1:1 choice between either working with Walker or working with Zemo. There was a decision not to work with Walker and a decision to use Zemo for intel, those decisions were mutually exclusive. Further - no one choice to work WITH Zemo. The choice was to USE Zemo for information. It isn't an alliance, or a partnership. Sam doesn't trust him, Sam and Bucky were both willing to turn him over to the Dora Milaje as soon as he is no longer useful.
There was not a 1:1 choice between either working with Walker or working with Zemo. There was a decision not to work with Walker and a decision to use Zemo for intel, those decisions were mutually exclusive. Further - no one choice to work WITH Zemo. The choice was to USE Zemo for information. It isn't an alliance, or a partnership. Sam doesn't trust him, Sam and Bucky were both willing to turn him over to the Dora Milaje as soon as he is no longer useful.
Pardon me for not responding to the line by line thing, I find that way of interacting tiring. I think there are some fair points you have made in terms of the details, but the "big picture" is what is bothering me.
I was not suggesting that Bucky looked at a menu and picked the Zemo menu rather than the Walker one.
I am speaking to the fact that he and Sam showed obvious distaste to Walker's offer to working together, mainly because they just didn't like him. Walker didn't know what was going on but has access to resources they could have at least explored before deciding to ditch or continue working with him. At the same time he didn't hesitate to bust Zemo, the man who literally used Bucky to kill and attack people, out of prison and is now continuously protecting him. I know Bucky doesn't like Zemo, but I find dichotomy between who is is and isn't willing to work with (up until Walker truly fell off the edge) difficult to digest. I am aware Zemo could get them information. Is he really the only resource they could have gone to? Why not exhaust other options first before going to that extreme? I find that all extremely difficult to digest, especially when "plot convenience" seems to be half of the answer. (I was gonna spitball "other options" but they don't really matter; they chose the direct they did Because Plot.)
The moral question I believe the show is asking us is "do the ends justify the means?" Even if absolutely no one else in the entire world could have given them the information on the location of the serum, would it have been right to free a man as evil as Zemo from prison? Are the consequences of their actions (finding Nagel, getting him killed, the serum getting into Walker's hands) acceptable?
My answer remains "no, the ends do not justify the means."
We will see what happens.
One thing we also have to think about: for Bucky this is extremely personal.His whole arc begins in Ep 1 with him breaking the rules of his own therapy/pardon agreement in a bid to prove to himself that he can do things his OWN way. In other words, in my opinion anyway, he just got done spending decades programmed to have his own personal control taken away from him and then, when he finally gets pardoned, he's right back to being controlled as part of said pardon.
Hmm, that is an interesting point. Zemo was written into Bucky's Moleskin. The idea that Bucky is doing this as part of his act of making amends is interesting.
I still don't agree they are doing the right thing, but it explains Bucky's willingness to work with Zemo better at least.
|
|
I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
I'm not sure why a "deep dive" would be necessary. The TV costume is an homage to the costume worn first by Steve Rogers as The Captain, then later by Walker as USAgent.
I am speaking to the fact that he and Sam showed obvious distaste to Walker's offer to working together, mainly because they just didn't like him. Walker didn't know what was going on but has access to resources they could have at least explored before deciding to ditch or continue working with him. At the same time he didn't hesitate to bust Zemo, the man who literally used Bucky to kill and attack people, out of prison and is now continuously protecting him. I know Bucky doesn't like Zemo, but I find dichotomy between who is is and isn't willing to work with (up until Walker truly fell off the edge) difficult to digest. I am aware Zemo could get them information. Is he really the only resource they could have gone to? Why not exhaust other options first before going to that extreme? I find that all extremely difficult to digest, especially when "plot convenience" seems to be half of the answer. (I was gonna spitball "other options" but they don't really matter; they chose the direct they did Because Plot.) ..
What resources do you think Walker has access to that Sam doesn’t? Walker is a highly decorated soldier who has just been promoted into the role of Captain America and is still in the process of making connections. Sam is an Avenger with connections to the US Military, SHIELD, Wakanda and other multi and international agencies.
Yeah Sam and Bucky showed distaste with working together with Walker - it was when he admitted to spying on them and then directly condescended to them - the professionals he was asking to help him because he was lost in the weeds as his inferiors that they walked away.
You keep mentioning their distaste for Walker and contrasting that with their “willingness” to work with Zemo. They have expressed just as much distaste for Zemo, if not more.
I also don’t understand the argument “Because Plot” being a negative. Yes they chose to follow the plot they chose because that’s the narrative they’re telling. How is a narrative, doing what a narrative does, a failing of the narrative?
I'm not sure why a "deep dive" would be necessary. The TV costume is an homage to the costume worn first by Steve Rogers as The Captain, then later by Walker as USAgent.I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
If you actually click and read it, the post is from the POV of a costumer and is, IMO, an incredible analysis of the subtleties of color, specific choices in interpretation, and costuming techniques in general that speak to why Walker's look is jarring to viewers, beyond simply that it is a comics-based costume. You may not be interested in something like that, but it doesn't mean it's not worthwhile for those who are interested in those kind of details to take a look.
What resources do you think Walker has access to that Sam doesn’t? Walker is a highly decorated soldier who has just been promoted into the role of Captain America and is still in the process of making connections. Sam is an Avenger with connections to the US Military, SHIELD, Wakanda and other multi and international agencies.Yeah Sam and Bucky showed distaste with working together with Walker - it was when he admitted to spying on them and then directly condescended to them - the professionals he was asking to help him because he was lost in the weeds as his inferiors that they walked away.
You keep mentioning their distaste for Walker and contrasting that with their “willingness” to work with Zemo. They have expressed just as much distaste for Zemo, if not more.
I also don’t understand the argument “Because Plot” being a negative. Yes they chose to follow the plot they chose because that’s the narrative they’re telling. How is a...
dirtypool, maybe I am reading into things, but I get the sense you're getting angry more than passionate and I feel like this discussion on both our ends is starting to get into the weeds. I am trying to do better about not flying into grumpy back and forths that derail threads with incessant detail nitpicking (where I am the grumpy one who is nitpicking, mind you). So--and acknowledging that I started this threads with stronger words than was necessary--I am just going to stop what I started. I dislike the overall plot arc with Zemo as it stands, and I have my reasons. You don't, and you have your reasons. That's ok.
dirtypool, maybe I am reading into things, but I get the sense you're getting angry more than passionate and I feel like this discussion on both our ends is starting to get into the weeds
You are definitely reading into things because I am neither passionate about this nor am I angry.
We've discussed Marvel shows and movies before, and I have noticed that most of your opinions fall the way they do because you view the franchise based on some sort of moral absolutism you expect the stories to meet. Bucky springing Zemo not being the "morally correct" solution for example, or Steve's Happy Ending being morally incorrect for another.
More often than not this seems to lead your conversations with people about these shows and movies to be restricted to these moments of moral failing - which are generally not the prime, meta, or subtext of the shows narrative.
Using the old bad guy to help you catch the new bad guy is a standard trope of this kind of story. I guess I'm just having trouble seeing why that is such a sticking point.
I'm not sure why a "deep dive" would be necessary. The TV costume is an homage to the costume worn first by Steve Rogers as The Captain, then later by Walker as USAgent.I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
1. Costume design for live-action media like film and TV is vastly different than costume design for comics. It's a very different visual medium and the cues don't land in the same ways.
2. The article and analysis I linked to discusses Walker's practical costume design vis-a-vis Rogers' Captain America's look in the MCU films, and how Walker's costume is visually jarring in comparison and how it telegraphs Walker's eventual heel-turn. It doesn't go into any history of their respective characters in the comics at all.
3. Some of us enjoy superhero movies and TV shows but don't really read comics. Until this week when I read some analysis of this show, I had no idea who "The Captain" or "USAgent" even were.
3. Some of us enjoy superhero movies and TV shows but don't really read comics. Until this week when I read some analysis of this show, I had no idea who "The Captain" or "USAgent" even were.
Certainly, but shouldn't an analysis of the design include some understanding of the elements that came from the source material rather than considering the live action version as if the choices made in its creation were made whole cloth for the current iteration?
The reason a choice was made for the original medium might not align with the thinking on why it was made for the new medium.
However, we KNOW in Ep 1 that one of the guys that Sam is working with directly as a contractor has had a run in with the Flagsmashers, so it's likely that he could pull some strings, start an inquiry that way.
That incident is where Sam's inquiry did start, he investigated as far as he could and gave his intel to Sam. Which lead Sam to use Redwing to do analysis and surveillance which led him to Germany in Episode 2.
Not to mention - we've got a pretty good psychiatrist character who, in other TV shows would fit the trope of turning a practicing psychiatrist into a behavioral analysis expert.
How does a behavioral analysis expert give them actionable information about where to find the Serum that has gotten into the hands of the Flag Smashers? That is after all - the line of inquiry that Zemo is called in for.
We meet Isaiah Bradley in Ep 2 and he's too angry to help the main characters at that time, but no further development is paid there where HE might be able to point the main characters in the right direction.
How would a man who was put in prison in the 1950's and released sometime in the 1990's only to move into a home in Baltimore have better intelligence about a terrorist organization currently working abroad?
And then, let's look at what the show ACTUALLY gives us as the qualifiers for Zemo: he's wealthy (so is Wakandan royalty), he has underworld connections (presumably so does Sam since he talks about having to live on the lam for 2 years), and he knows the Super Soldier Serum (Bucky is powered by a version of the stuff). He also... KNOWS HYDRA.
This is actually used in a line of dialogue by Bucky as a selling point of Zemo in Ep 3. Why is THAT relevant?
Yes that was used as a line of dialogue wherein the character explained why it was relevant. It was relevant because before they discovered that Karli and the Flag Smashers were using a new iteration of the Super Soldier Serum created by Dr. Nagel - Bucky suspected they were using the Hydra version of the Super Soldier Serum that was used to turn him into the Winter Soldier.
Bucky knew that all of the Hydra records regarding the Winter Soldier program had been studied extensively by Zemo in his quest to destroy the Avengers as we saw in Civil War - with him tracking down the other Winter Soldiers and murdering them before they could be activated.
Zemo admitted it wasn't Hydra but that he had intel that could lead them to who it was.
His intel then paid off in Madripoor.
3. Some of us enjoy superhero movies and TV shows but don't really read comics. Until this week when I read some analysis of this show, I had no idea who "The Captain" or "USAgent" even were.Certainly, but shouldn't an analysis of the design include some understanding of the elements that came from the source material rather than considering the live action version as if the choices made in its creation were made whole cloth for the current iteration?
The reason a choice was made for the original medium might not align with the thinking on why it was made for the new medium.
I'll defer to the article itself. I found it very interesting from a design perspective.
In general, I think the MCU writers has been doing a good job making their films and TV shows completely enjoyable for those of us who know little-to-nothing of Marvel comic history.
(I was into comics in the 80s and 90s, but I was primarily a DC fan...)
|
I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
Neat read, fun to think of all the funky little visual tricks that go into costume choices.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure why a "deep dive" would be necessary. The TV costume is an homage to the costume worn first by Steve Rogers as The Captain, then later by Walker as USAgent.I just read a very interesting deep dive on the design choices behind John Walker's superhero costume and how it differs from Steve Roger's.
Definitely worth reading!
1. Costume design for live-action media like film and TV is vastly different than costume design for comics. It's a very different visual medium and the cues don't land in the same ways.
2. The article and analysis I linked to discusses Walker's practical costume design vis-a-vis Rogers' Captain America's look in the MCU films, and how Walker's costume is visually jarring in comparison and how it telegraphs Walker's eventual heel-turn. It doesn't go into any history of their respective characters in the comics at all.
Sounds needlessly complicated, but that's probably just the engineer in me. I can get why some people might like that sort of thing, though. I did, in fact, click on the link, but when I saw it was contained within the cesspool of Twitter, I didn't bother with it.
3. Some of us enjoy superhero movies and TV shows but don't really read comics. Until this week when I read some analysis of this show, I had no idea who "The Captain" or "USAgent" even were.
I read this, and it made me think about how long it's been since Captain America #350 was published. That was the issue when the John Walker as Cap fiasco finally came to a head. That was over 30 years ago - so now I feel old. I should find that issue in my collection and read it again.