Im currently running two groups within the same world that sometimes joins together to face huge a threat. Im designing a boss encounter that's going to be a large were bat. Its going to have to withstand a party of 8 pcs. I was thinking of adding cavalier for areal charging but I would like the boss to be able to do knock backs so that pc's will take falling dmg. The room set up is the important part. I've seen a group of pcs destroy monsters at a much higher cl than the group and its bc the dm failed to add terrain to the combat.
What I have right now is the room is going to have two to three bridges spanning across it. I was going to have multiple vines hanging from the celling as well. In case a party member needed to jump from one bridge to the next that could use acrobatics checks to do so.
My question is does anyone have a build for the were bat or any unique encounter or terrain ides. The party will be level 4 or 5 when this happens. I was thinking of hand waving things and giving the creature awesome blow to accomplish some of my goals.
Arc
A bull rush build should accomplish it, especially if you can swing reach. Smaller PCs? Pick 'em up, fly 'em up, drop 'em (definitely boost Strength on this werebat for that, which could also help legitimize the Awesome Blow idea).
Far as terrain, couple of thoughts. Gusts of wind between the bridges could throw off ranged attacks, launch fallen or traversing PCs, and temporarily restrict the boss's movement. Holes in the bridges or partially standing walls could provide interesting geometry for attacks from both sides. Finally, if this is an enclosed space, maybe an intermittent deeper darkness effect or the ability to trigger one, forcing the werebat to rely on scent and echolocation while the blind players hide themselves via stealth checks.
the problem with a solo boss fight is that either a boss gets ganked quick because of the huge difference in number of attacks/actions weighing against them, or they are built to compensate and then most of your players spend the entire combat trying to catch up to them and never actually getting to engage, because the boss is doing some version of ride-by or fly-by attacks.
thus, minions! Add in some batswarms and larger bats for the group to tussel with while the werebat can focus on a foe or two at a time. Also, what do the players who get knocked off the bridges fall to? Their death? a pillow factory? Insta killed because something bigger and stronger than you rolled a 5 and sent you plummeting to your death is also not very fun. Either give lots of opportunities to catch themselves on lower levels, hanging ropes/vines or let them land in something non-lethal but then maybe put a zombie or giant leech down there or something for them to fight, as they're probably out of the main combat at that point (fighting and then killing whatever is down there, only to recover a bow with silver shapechanger bane arrows from the last poor sod that tried to kill this werebat would be neat aspect to this fight).
Terrain is a often overlooked aspect of many fights and I think are the spice that makes any encounter better, but you must also take into consideration of those terrain features and what happens when a player inevitably falls into them and how they can be used to enhance the scene, not just make it harder.
Maxim Perdan wrote: A bull rush build should accomplish it, especially if you can swing reach. Smaller PCs? Pick 'em up, fly 'em up, drop 'em (definitely boost Strength on this werebat for that, which could also help legitimize the Awesome Blow idea).
Far as terrain, couple of thoughts. Gusts of wind between the bridges could throw off ranged attacks, launch fallen or traversing PCs, and temporarily restrict the boss's movement. Holes in the bridges or partially standing walls could provide interesting geometry for attacks from both sides. Finally, if this is an enclosed space, maybe an intermittent deeper darkness effect or the ability to trigger one, forcing the werebat to rely on scent and echolocation while the blind players hide themselves via stealth checks.
if you fall through someones square would that person get an AAO ? I wonder?
yukongil wrote: the problem with a solo boss fight is that either a boss gets ganked quick because of the huge difference in number of attacks/actions weighing against them, or they are built to compensate and then most of your players spend the entire combat trying to catch up to them and never actually getting to engage, because the boss is doing some version of ride-by or fly-by attacks.
thus, minions! Add in some batswarms and larger bats for the group to tussel with while the werebat can focus on a foe or two at a time. Also, what do the players who get knocked off the bridges fall to? Their death? a pillow factory? Insta killed because something bigger and stronger than you rolled a 5 and sent you plummeting to your death is also not very fun. Either give lots of opportunities to catch themselves on lower levels, hanging ropes/vines or let them land in something non-lethal but then maybe put a zombie or giant leech down there or something for them to fight, as they're probably out of the main combat at that point (fighting and then killing whatever is down there, only to recover a bow with silver shapechanger bane arrows from the last poor sod that tried to kill this werebat would be neat aspect to this fight).
Terrain is a often overlooked aspect of many fights and I think are the spice that makes any encounter better, but you must also take into consideration of those terrain features and what happens when a player inevitably falls into them and how they can be used to enhance the scene, not just make it harder.
I was going to put water about 20 ft down. i have a very very rough image of it before I start working on a photoshop version. https://postimg.cc/grVTsbYT
I assume you are talking about a Dire Bat, not a Werebat?
I would switch a Dire Bat's feats to include Hover... since it is large, it will disturb the ground below it... and let it just rock the bridges below it as it flies over them. Possibly give it Flyby Attack, as well.
At this level, the darkness/light setting, and either a wind that blows out mundane torches or dampness that snuffs mundane torches, will provide a decent environmental challenge.
Make the fall from the bridge enough to knock a healthy player unconscious, but not kill them. However, it may end a wounded character if they fall.
VoodistMonk wrote: I assume you are talking about a Dire Bat, not a Werebat?
I would switch a Dire Bat's feats to include Hover... since it is large, it will disturb the ground below it... and let it just rock the bridges below it as it flies over them. Possibly give it Flyby Attack, as well.
At this level, the darkness/light setting, and either a wind that blows out mundane torches or dampness that snuffs mundane torches, will provide a decent environmental challenge.
Make the fall from the bridge enough to knock a healthy player unconscious, but not kill them. However, it may end a wounded character if they fall. I was going to use a were- bat and make him larger. great ideas tho.
If the party is level 4-5 and there are 8 of them, then your Werebat is going to run into serious action economy issues and get pulverized before he can do anything, unless you also plan to have additional mooks and baddies out there protecting him. Tbh, I would have 2-4 Bat Swarms (CR2), and maybe 1-3 "Lieutenant" Werebats (CR3-ish), and maybe 1-2 Mobat (CR3) for an AoE Stagger screech. Staggering some PC's will definitely reduce their action economy to ensure your Boss doesn't get pulverized in 3 rounds.
Terrain:
I would make this cave they fight in something like a large open expanse, and the floor slopes upwards towards the back of the cavern at a 30ish-degree angle and the floor is broken up into two sections with a ravine in the middle (with the bridges connecting them). That way when you knock them back from wherever they were standing, the falling damage at wherever they land is exacerbated slightly because of how the floor slopes, AND there's always the threat of falling down the ravine in the middle. I think the Vines are cool addition, because that can provide an acrobatics check to grab one while they're falling, if you want.
BBEG:
As far as a build, I'd recommend downloading the Combat Manager app to your computer/laptop/phone, and choose Werebat, Nycaloth, or something similar, and adjust its stats/CR as you see fit. If you're not up for that, just make a level 5 Cavalier and add the Magical Beast Template, and give it feats: Spirited Charge & Fly By Attack.
Agreed all around on the action economy issue, especially if your combined party has multiple save-or-suck builds or a lotta attack rolls. Get some minions in there or tie up a portion of the party at all times with environmental effects or processes that require their attention.
Arcasus wrote: if you fall through someones square would that person get an AAO ? I wonder? To my understanding, involuntary movement doesn't usually trigger AoO. There was actually a neat mechanic in a Season 9 PFS scenario involving players who fell off the platforms looping back around to the top, Pac-Man style, until they arrested their momentum. Good time!
Ryze Kuja wrote: If the party is level 4-5 and there are 8 of them, then your Werebat is going to run into serious action economy issues and get pulverized before he can do anything, unless you also plan to have additional mooks and baddies out there protecting him. Tbh, I would have 2-4 Bat Swarms (CR2), and maybe 1-3 "Lieutenant" Werebats (CR3-ish), and maybe 1-2 Mobat (CR3) for an AoE Stagger screech. Staggering some PC's will definitely reduce their action economy to ensure your Boss doesn't get pulverized in 3 rounds.
Terrain:
I would make this cave they fight in something like a large open expanse, and the floor slopes upwards towards the back of the cavern at a 30ish-degree angle and the floor is broken up into two sections with a ravine in the middle (with the bridges connecting them). That way when you knock them back from wherever they were standing, the falling damage at wherever they land is exacerbated slightly because of how the floor slopes, AND there's always the threat of falling down the ravine in the middle. I think the Vines are cool addition, because that can provide an acrobatics check to grab one while they're falling, if you want.
BBEG:
As far as a build, I'd recommend downloading the Combat Manager app to your computer/laptop/phone, and choose Werebat, Nycaloth, or something similar, and adjust its stats/CR as you see fit. If you're not up for that, just make a level 5 Cavalier and add the Magical Beast Template, and give it feats: Spirited Charge & Fly By Attack.
i think im going to make the vine bridge have mud on it as well and be like one of those bridges you see that is made purely of natural elements. Im going to make one for the werebats a cave druid and do soften earth and stone to make the party's members stuck. the next turn have the druid do it on the cave ceilings for a small cave in.
Maxim Perdan wrote: Agreed all around on the action economy issue, especially if your combined party has multiple save-or-suck builds or a lotta attack rolls. Get some minions in there or tie up a portion of the party at all times with environmental effects or processes that require their attention.
Arcasus wrote: if you fall through someones square would that person get an AAO ? I wonder? To my understanding, involuntary movement doesn't usually trigger AoO. There was actually a neat mechanic in a Season 9 PFS scenario involving players who fell off the platforms looping back around to the top, Pac-Man style, until they arrested their momentum. Good time!
what if a were bat stopped flying to free fall, its not involuntary movement at that point?
Arcasus wrote: Maxim Perdan wrote: Agreed all around on the action economy issue, especially if your combined party has multiple save-or-suck builds or a lotta attack rolls. Get some minions in there or tie up a portion of the party at all times with environmental effects or processes that require their attention.
Arcasus wrote: if you fall through someones square would that person get an AAO ? I wonder? To my understanding, involuntary movement doesn't usually trigger AoO. There was actually a neat mechanic in a Season 9 PFS scenario involving players who fell off the platforms looping back around to the top, Pac-Man style, until they arrested their momentum. Good time!
what if a were bat stopped flying to free fall, its not involuntary movement at that point?
If the werebat's choosing its path, either freely or by making checks to move along it, that sounds voluntary to me!
Maxim Perdan wrote: Arcasus wrote: Maxim Perdan wrote: Agreed all around on the action economy issue, especially if your combined party has multiple save-or-suck builds or a lotta attack rolls. Get some minions in there or tie up a portion of the party at all times with environmental effects or processes that require their attention.
Arcasus wrote: if you fall through someones square would that person get an AAO ? I wonder? To my understanding, involuntary movement doesn't usually trigger AoO. There was actually a neat mechanic in a Season 9 PFS scenario involving players who fell off the platforms looping back around to the top, Pac-Man style, until they arrested their momentum. Good time!
what if a were bat stopped flying to free fall, its not involuntary movement at that point?
If the werebat's choosing its path, either freely or by making checks to move along it, that sounds voluntary to me! its going to be many months down the road but wanted advice. will post when we get to this point!
I'd consider looking at the terrain itself as an enemy with its own objectives.
Slick, natural stone bridges want people to slip off of them, or at least make them take extra care while moving.
Blasts of chill, dank wind wants to slow everyone's movement and maybe push some folks off the bridges.
Stagnant cavern pools want to...drown people where they're deep enough? Or just hide some nasty things down there. Leeches or hungry albino cave-fish or giant crab-ticks or a small horde of zombies or some sort of ooze?
What if there was something about these caves that absorbed natural and magical light? The players would have to spend turns recasting spells so they can see again, and maybe would want to move to specific areas to destroy/disable/whatever these things are so they can fight the monster effectively.
Bat swarms are fine, but what if the whole area was full of fluttering bats? No damage, but everything has a weaker form of cover, there are penalties to ranged attacks and Perception and there's a static Concentration check needed?
If the environment is interesting and engaging enough as it's own thing, slap some fast healing on that were-dire-bat and make several separate encounters with the same foe.
Quixote wrote: I'd consider looking at the terrain itself as an enemy with its own objectives.
Slick, natural stone bridges want people to slip off of them, or at least make them take extra care while moving.
Blasts of chill, dank wind wants to slow everyone's movement and maybe push some folks off the bridges.
Stagnant cavern pools want to...drown people where they're deep enough? Or just hide some nasty things down there. Leeches or hungry albino cave-fish or giant crab-ticks or a small horde of zombies or some sort of ooze?
What if there was something about these caves that absorbed natural and magical light? The players would have to spend turns recasting spells so they can see again, and maybe would want to move to specific areas to destroy/disable/whatever these things are so they can fight the monster effectively.
Bat swarms are fine, but what if the whole area was full of fluttering bats? No damage, but everything has a weaker form of cover, there are penalties to ranged attacks and Perception and there's a static Concentration check needed? the fluttering bats is a cool idea. I could maybe make the bats move every round so that the party members may cast certain spells when the bats are not around. very good idea. i think if someone falls off alone into the water. Even a weak level 1 water monster could kill the player.
If the environment is interesting and engaging enough as it's own thing, slap some fast healing on that were-dire-bat and make several separate encounters with the same foe.
Arcasus wrote: Quixote wrote: I'd consider looking at the terrain itself as an enemy with its own objectives.
Slick, natural stone bridges want people to slip off of them, or at least make them take extra care while moving.
Blasts of chill, dank wind wants to slow everyone's movement and maybe push some folks off the bridges.
Stagnant cavern pools want to...drown people where they're deep enough? Or just hide some nasty things down there. Leeches or hungry albino cave-fish or giant crab-ticks or a small horde of zombies or some sort of ooze?
What if there was something about these caves that absorbed natural and magical light? The players would have to spend turns recasting spells so they can see again, and maybe would want to move to specific areas to destroy/disable/whatever these things are so they can fight the monster effectively.
Bat swarms are fine, but what if the whole area was full of fluttering bats? No damage, but everything has a weaker form of cover, there are penalties to ranged attacks and Perception and there's a static Concentration check needed? the fluttering bats is a cool idea. I could maybe make the bats move every round so that the party members may cast certain spells when the bats are not around. very good idea. i think if someone falls off alone into the water. Even a weak level 1 water monster could kill the player.
If the environment is interesting and engaging enough as it's own thing, slap some fast healing on that were-dire-bat and make several separate encounters with the same foe.
Thanks for the input everyone.
PCs enter this room at the "bridge" level; depending on the size/shape of the room, they may not even see monsters hidden among the stalactites. If the were-bat or other flying monsters are clung to the rocks along the ceiling and have a starting position of 65' or more from where the PCs enter, normal vision from the PCs may not even have a chance of seeing them.
The side walls of the chamber are avail to climb per the diagram. Is this a tactic you anticipate the PCs using? If so, obvious threats along those walls could make things more interesting. Patches of Brown Mold, Small sized crevices containing minions with a Climb speed and such. This is a were-bat with druidic powers, presumably there will be underground creatures for it's magic to affect in the area?
Obvious slippery bridge trope is obvious. Why not circumvent expectations? The bridge is the only SAFE place for the characters to be, but that area pins them down. If they get airborne then: stalactites fall, flying bat swarms harass them; an immature Shantak (take the normal monster and give it the Young template to weaken it) flies around and slams them.
I DO like the suggestion above of putting something terrifying in the water below. That, coupled with standard environmental challenges (a narrow bridge then open space separating PCs from the walls, ceiling or floors; natural darkness; potential for drowning in pools below) makes just diving over the side of the bridge daunting.
Also, if we're talking about an underground environment with stalactites above, I'm guessing that also means the rest of the chamber is cavernous? Again, depending how large an encounter area you want to make this, consider some other natural features around the outer walls: sheets of flowstone, galleries or irregular shelves of rock; adjoining tunnels accessed through cracks or crevices; water seepage and channels or rivulets of running water; actual waterfalls crashing through the chamber.
Looking at the diagram, perhaps the party is entering to the south (the part of the bridge farthest away from the 1 and 2) and they have to head north along the bridge. There are a couple pillars of flowstone that the bridge connects to and these are slick with slime and water; hazard: an Ooze or the Green Slime Hazard or some other cave-bound threat mingles with the dripping rock of one of these pillars.
The bridges span the empty space through the cavern, with milky pools in the floor below. These pools are surrounded on several sides by stalagmites and thin walls of flowstone, some of which climb nearly to the bridge (have one or two of these rock outcrops rise to within 5' to 10' of the bridge). They might provide an escape down to the cavern floor if the PCs want to go that route, but these areas are also slimy and damp, not easily climbed unless someone has a Climb speed... and feature enormous (give the Simple: Giant template) Cave Scorpions nesting among the rocks.
Along the east wall are a number of shallow ledges and Small sized crevices in the stone. There are obvious ladders and smaller rope bridges connecting these together; a group of mites, loyal to the were-bat, make their lair along the wall. These fey, in themselves, are not any sort of deterrent for the PCs but their Scent ability, 90' Darkvision and the ability to command a couple of the Large sized Cave Scorpions to attack the characters on the bridge will be a factor. Also their leader can be a 4th level spell caster of some kind that uses their abilities to buff or aid the were-bat while making minor hassles for the characters.
The west wall is highly irregular, with several streams of water coursing through several layers of flowstone galleries. This running water provides a steady breeze of cold, damp air through the whole chamber. The were-bat druid or the mite leader may have a spell that can exploit or worsen those winds or the chill. An immature Shantak dwells in the western wall, though the PCs won't see the creature at first. Instead they'll spot strange, metal cocoons, all burst open, and several blue "earless jaguars" crawling among the galleries. These are in fact a pack of Akatas, brought into these caves clinging to the body of an elder Shantak that smashed into this undergroun chamber in a bygone age. The were-bat has been capturing foolish mortals and feeding them to some of the akatas so the floor along the western wall is strewn with a horde of Void Zombies.
So, as the PCs enter: leaving the safety of the bridge is a dangerous climb down to meet small armies of minor villains, however the bridge itself is sturdy and stable. The ledges of the mites are at the closest 60' away, so their sling bullets would be little more than an annoyance to the party as they cross. Once they get about halfway however, the wind starts to pick up; pebbles and debris cast about on the bridge here swirls into a thick cloud of swirling detritus.
If they run back, they encounter a couple Large sized cave scorpions with a mite druid 4 mounted on one of them. If they get airborne they've got the shantak coming at them from one angle and a summoned air elemental from the were-bat from another, not to mention the were-bat himself. If they try to climb down it's a challenging descent made worse by another scorpion and the void zombies. Plus patches of brown mold scattered around; plus the steep drop; plus a suddenly falling stalactite... and so on.
Those are just some suggestions, feel free to ignore them if they don't fit your game.
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