I am planning on running a high Charisma based Dragon Disciple Monk. Originally I was under the impression the Dragon Breath from Dragon Disciple was an innate arcane spell. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1945
I looked at some older threads but no one seem to have have an actual answer. Innate spells are actually quite complicated themselves but since innate spells scale with your highest tradition Dragon Disciple seemed decent for casters.
Originally I was planning on it being an innate spell and playing as a Monk since their divine spellcasting would cause it to scale decently.
Has there been any official updates on what this was actually supposed to be. Shape of the Dragon says it is an innate spell and pretty much every spell I have seen states that it is an innate spell or a spell that uses X tradition proficiency.
If there is controversy I guess I will ask the GM to be sure. If it is not an innate spell it seems like it would be quite bad since it would be an Arcane Spell based of Charisma which means so little characters could even use it.
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Dragon Breath is not an Innate Spell, but rather a Focus Spell. Focus Spells have the same tradition as the class that grants them. For example, a Wizard's focus spells are all Arcane, regardless if you get them as a Wizard or some other class. The Dragon's Breath spell is from the Draconic Bloodline, which uses the Arcane Tradition, so the Focus Spell is Arcane.
Secondly, the rules for non-spellcasters that get Focus Spells states that when you gain a Focus Spell, you get training in it automatically, so you would at least be Trained in the spell.
"You gain the dragon breath sorcerer bloodline spell and a focus pool of 1 Focus Point." As such, you base it off your arcane spell DC. As a bonus though, it IS cha based. As to "If it is not an innate spell it seems like it would be quite bad since it would be an Arcane Spell based of Charisma which means so little characters could even use it" you do know that sorcerers and oracles can be cha based arcane so being a kobold with those classes can use it well. Any class can also take a spellcaster multiclass to get up to master proficiency in in one of those classes too.
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The dedication is indeed missing the information it is supposed to provide when giving you a focus spell (see the link from Cordell Kintner's post above).
"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. "
Likely Trained and Arcana tradition for the reasons mentioned above. Also the very similar Kobold Breath ancestry feat is Arcane.
I guess I will just give up on using it then for Monk since I would like to grab some Monk feats. Well if it is not an innate there are only a few classes that can use it somewhat effectively without it falling off hard.
That is very disappointing since the only class that gets scaling arcane traditions is Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch and Wizard/Witch generally don't want Charisma and Sorcerer can already learn it by going Draconic.
Out of curiosity how can Oracle be charisma based arcane? I haven't looked everything about Oracle super thoroughly but I know normally they are just Divine.
Also to get a multiclass proficiency it would be very awkward. Since you would have to...
Go (2) Caster Dedication > (4) Basic Spellcasting > (6) Random Caster Feat > (8) Dragon Disciple > (10) Dragon Breadth > (12) Expert Spellcasting
Looks like I have to give up on any sort of Dragon Disciple using Dragon Breath. I could still use it for the level 12+ stuff though. The real question would be what level to take the dedication feat.
The real problem is my character is stuck with Charisma instead of Wisdom so I can't get Ki Blast which is pretty much just as good but wanted to breath ice as a dragon and not sure the GM will let people change anything.
Thanks for the responses. Kobold Breath has "Each creature in the area must attempt a basic saving throw against the higher of your class DC or spell DC" which is a lot more versatile. At the same time Kobold Breath seems kind of weak sadly :(
The best it can do is 1d8 heightening vs 2d6 from Dragon Breath.
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A non-Draconic Sorcerer going into Dragon Disciple would enjoy the benefits too.
Come to think of it, this feat is likely the reason why the archetype forces Draconic Sorcerers to have the same Dragon type. Otherwise, a Draconic Sorcerer going into Dragon Disciple would have access to 2 different versions of the same Focus power, which sounds pretty open to unexpected interactions.
Have you considered, since you are a combatant, to instead go for the dragon barbarian archetype? It would be more efficient and less demanding.
I admit I didn't look at Barbarian much. It looks like I could get Dragon Breath at level 12 with Barbarian if I look at it.
What would my DC be based off of if I took Barbarian? All I see is that Barbarian archetype gives you trained in Barbarian DC.
My stats are
STR 12
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16 (thought Dragon Breath was an innate skill)
I am not sure if there is a way to get a decent scaling breath type attack. If there is I of course would love to have suggestion. Kobold is 1d8 every 2 levels which feels like will always be worse than just attacking unless there are like 4+ enemies.
As far as I can tell my best option would be go Sorcerer for
(2) Sorcerer Dedication
(4) Basic Spellcasting
(6) Basic Blood Potency (reach spell?)
(8) Dragon Disciple Dedication
(10) Dragon Breath
(12) Expert Spellcasting
Overall that would work okay but would have to give up every class feat :(. If only there was free archetype in my game lol. Then I could do lots of things.
To me even the basic kobold breath would be excellent for a monk, simply because of flurry of blows:
1 action to perform 2 unarmed strikes + Kobold Breath ( ever 1d4 rounds ).
You might also consider to use the focus points for other stuff:
lvl 1 Ki strike ( 1 focus pool )
lvl 2 Sorcerer Dedication
lvl 4 Basic Basic Bloodline spells ( 2 focus pool )
lvl 6 Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting
lvl 8 Dragon Disciple Dedication
lvl 10 Claws of the Dragon
lvl 12 Meditative focusby lvl 12 your unarmed attacks would deal 3d6 ( 1d6 base + 2d6 greater striking runes ) + 2d6 ( damage depends your element ).
so you will be able to do 2x strikes + 1 breath ( even if not so good it would be better than a third attack ).
And you will also have an extra focus point to perform a ki strike, to boost even more your attacks.
ps: remember to go for a ring of wizardry ( it's just uncommon, so it would be quite easy to get with a lot of effort during downtime ), in order to get 2 more lvl 3 spells ( haste 3/day ). To proceed further into spellcasting may not be worth it, given the cost.
That would definitely be an interesting way to go. I do have a lot of ways to go with the character since I am just level 2. So far flurry of blows + electric arc has been surprisingly effective. There are definitely a lot of options what is what I love about PF2. Just have to rethink which direction to take my character.
I did want to add I was trying to avoid going the spellcaster dedication route for two reasons though.
1. The campaign is on Roll20 without any books and I find it SUPER annoying adding spells manually.
2. Every character I make ends up being a caster or hybrid caster so I was trying to stay away from that route by just going for martial feats + dragon breath but seems like dragon breath might just not be worth the trouble.
Also I really want to try to fit in a nice stance + upgraded stance (stumbling or tiger stance).
"You gain the dragon breath sorcerer bloodline spell and a focus pool of 1 Focus Point." As such, you base it off your arcane spell DC. As a bonus though, it IS cha based. As to "If it is not an innate spell it seems like it would be quite bad since it would be an Arcane Spell based of Charisma which means so little characters could even use it" you do know that sorcerers and oracles can be cha based arcane so being a kobold with those classes can use it well. Any class can also take a spellcaster multiclass to get up to master proficiency in in one of those classes too.
A Kobold Wizard or Witch could make use of it as well. Problem is that they aren't a very good class/ancestry combo, given that they are Intelligence-based (less useful than Charisma in this edition) and suffer a Constitution penalty on a 6 HP per level + 6 HP ancestry. Witches will have to compete for their Lessons and Familiar feats, Wizards not so much, depending on their school choice. The last problem stems that it's a Charisma-based DC, not Intelligence-based, meaning your DC will be too far behind to make it a valuable use of focus spells unless every square has a level-x bad guy in it.
It's literally a trap feat that works for nobody except the class that already automatically gets it. It just plain sucks and feels worse than playing an Alchemist.
While I do appreciate the distinction that points out how this works as RAW, it absolutely kills the Prismatic Scion Kobold I had planned as a character, which had so much potential, but is now unviable and dead.
I am intrigued by the concept of Prismatic Scion kobold. I would love if you could elaborate on this.
The idea was that I would be a Silver Dragonscaled Kobold (with Kobold Breath of course) combined with Fire Elemental Bloodline, flavored as having both Gold and Silver Dragon lineage within my ancestry. I could then take Gold Dragon Disciple dedication with Breath of the Dragon as well as Kobold Dragon's Breath, so I could breath both Fire and Cold at a fair parity, while also having other Cold and Fire stuff to mess around with.
Prismatic in this case refers to having the lineage of multiple types of dragons which influence the Elemental capacity and facets of the being, usually being at least 2, potentially more if those Prismatics have offspring with other similar types. It harkens most to D&D lore with Tiamat having the heads of all 5 Chromatic Dragon types, but in this case is a bit more elegant and balanced with PCs in mind.
That was, until I realized that the DCs would not scale appropriately between the choices presented.
What about directly taking Silver Dragonscaled Kobold with Gold Draconic Sorcerer? Not sure Dragon Disciple is even needed there.
I am trying my hand at a Black Dragonscaled Kobold Imperial Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple (not Black) to see where it goes.
There's a couple things wrong with this for the character. The first is that Fire Elemental Bloodline offers more versatility with spell choices that I want to have in a spontaneous spellcaster. The ability to heighten both healing and damage spells freely, combined with Dangerous Sorcery feat and the Fire Elemental Bloodline arcana helps out a ton with blasting while providing healing capability that being pure Arcane does not grant.
Secondly, there is the matter of dead/useless feats and having other cool options available. Dragon Disciple is a lot more interesting and provides the flavor and power of abilities I want (or so I thought in the latter) to represent the character. A lot of the Sorcerer feats are either really niche or don't help based off of the bloodline choice I made.
There is always the concept of picking different exemplars and such, but Metallic Dragons are Good, meaning I should pick Metallic Dragon choices for party cohesiveness. An Evil or even Neutral choice of Dragon type wouldn't be very conducive to the game's draw of team tactics, as Evil and Neutral alignments are usually selfish or not as team-oriented as the game demands.
Furthermore, it makes no sense that you get the choice of Divine (or other) Draconic Exemplars, but everything you get from racial effects still defaults to Arcane, and with certain feats or options, that just outright does not work out.