About to run a bog-standard lich fight, think my PCs will TPK. Can you help?


Advice

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Until the Lich gets past 6th level spells, possibly the best thing you can do is replace their levels with Eldritch Archer Magus, give them a bow, and let them "blast" that way...

It's quite easy to make the environment tilt things in the favor of the Undead... Could always use something like the Hell Pool room from Vordakai's Tomb... it's a CR 8 encounter with an invisible level 7 Wizard Dread Zombie flying around in it...

"This chamber is horrifically inhospitable to living creatures. The tar pool is boiling hot—each round of contact inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage, and total immersion inflicts 10d6 fire damage per round. Each round after a creature takes damage from the tar, it suffers half that amount of damage each round for 3 more rounds.

A small blob of tar can be removed as a full-round action, but a creature that was immersed in it can only avoid the damage by removing the sticky tar with universal solvent. After the tar burns for 3 rounds, it cools to a thick layer that effectively reduces the creature’s Dexterity by 4 points—it takes 2d4 minutes to peel the tar off.

A creature can slog through the tar each round it makes a DC 20 Strength check as a full-round action—success means the creature can move at a speed of 5 feet. The tar itself is too thick to be navigated by a swim speed, but a burrow speed works normally in it. Freedom of movement allows a creature to navigate the pool of tar with ease as if swimming in water. The pool is only 1 foot deep—below this layer, the tar is thick and vicious enough to support weight.

Making matters worse, the air in this chamber is hideously noxious. Every round a creature breathes the air in the room, it must make a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw—failure indicates the creature is nauseated for 1 round. A saving throw of a natural 1 results in 1d4 points of Constitution damage from the toxic air. This is a poison effect."


I thought we were trying to find ways to make the Lich guaranteed lose, but still be fun...

Rangers are the weakest possible entry... and Child of War Fighters.
Then Mediums.
Then Bloodragers.
Then Alchemists.

And now you are into 6th level casters with enough class abilities to rightfully hold their own... and Anti-Paladin Liches are terrifying...

The reason for that particular list is that the Lich is now a martial character... and by virtue of everything PF1, martials are infinitely easier to deal with compared to spellcasters.

Alchemist might even be pushing it because they can be a legit blaster with Bombs... and can only squeak into Lichdom with the Spell Knowledge Discovery... a generous loophole that deserves to be expoited for fun alchemist Liches.

Everything past the level where the PC's have 6th level spells themselves... Liches should be build for kill... turn it up to 11... no remorse...

I like to start as an Android... gestalt the Constructed Pugilist/Living Weapon Brawler with a Crossblooded (Impossible & Nanite) Sorcerer... the demigod of phylacteries... the infinite vault of other Liches phylacteries... every little device lost inside the infinite impossibilities that make up myself... I both safely store the phylacteries of others, and symultaneously draw power from them to fuel my own ambitions... bow to your Android Lich God... see, you can aspire, even worship, the concept of Lichdom... and I am willing to shoulder the responsibility of keeping your phylacteries safe... trust in me... give me your phylactery, make it part of the Supreme Lich Consciousness...

In a Mythic game, he gains Mythic ranks for every other phylactery stored in his infinite impossibilities... max of 10, or whatever max Mythic is... he can store an infinite amount of additional phylacteries (obviously), but only gains Mythic ranks up to max allowable Mythic ranks...


Opposite of the robot-Lich, you can have an Incorporeal Wild Shaping Lich Blight Druid... Death Domain, Shades of the Uskwood, Amulet of Grasping Souls, Ghost Syrup... definitely add Agent of the Grave for maximum effect...


If you replace the standard PF1 Lich's 11 Wizard levels with 11 Eldritch Archer Magus levels...

You are reduced to 4th level spells... never even achieve the Magus levels for one of the two Arcana specific to your own Ranged Spellstrike. Lol... nor are you high enough level for Eldritch Archer's Focusing Spellstrike...

Pretty sure that you could allow Reach Spellstrike Arcana and a Conductive bow to throw your Lich's paralyzing touch attach at range 1/rnd, too... might not be totally legal, but Liches are supposed to be scary...

BAB goes up a little... +5 to +8... enough to make a difference slinging arrows, though...

Stack the Hexcrafter archetype and/or VMC Witch, grab Coven... have that spare Ghost hanging around be Witchfire... or just give the generic PF1 Ghost 3 Sorcerer levels instead of 7 Aristocrat levels... Accursed Bloodline... replace ~10 skeletons with a low level Hag...

Have fun things like:
Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision...

Variety is the spice of unlife...

The entire Coven can easily have scrolls of greater invisibility at this point...


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:
Playing a lich like a blaster caster probably not the best of takes, but you do you my dude.
This comment threw me. What is the best take on this villain, or enemy NPC casters in the first place? I run enemy casters often and either they are support for whatever "brute" monster they have in the fight or I run them as blaster casters.

Blasters can be pretty disappointing if the party has any kind of damage mitigation going. Liches(Especially Necromancer Liches) should be packing minions, crowd control and big impact necromancy spells. Divide, cripple, conquer.

If I desperately wanted to avoid using Circle of Death here, I would replace it with Eyebite. Swift action so you don't need quickened magic missiles that do nothing and helps slow the combat down since some of these Fortitude saves would stick. The party are unlikely to have really exceptional fortitude saves. So probably a 50/50 each round whether it sticks.

Ideally, you want a Big Bad Caster fight to mostly be the party reacting to what the Caster is doing and blasting doesn't stop the party from doing anything unless it takes them straight to dead or dying.

If Malevolence is too much on the Ghost, Draining Touch makes it also dangerous without being a potential instant lose scenario. Sounds like the Ghost didn't do much of anything this encounter.

You could also make the mooks Burning Skeletons so the Lich can drop fireballs more liberally. It also makes them immune to the most common crowd killing spells.


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Scavion wrote:
Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:
Playing a lich like a blaster caster probably not the best of takes, but you do you my dude.
This comment threw me. What is the best take on this villain, or enemy NPC casters in the first place? I run enemy casters often and either they are support for whatever "brute" monster they have in the fight or I run them as blaster casters.
Blasters can be pretty disappointing if the party has any kind of damage mitigation going. Liches(Especially Necromancer Liches) should be packing minions, crowd control and big impact necromancy spells. Divide, cripple, conquer.

It also greatly depends on what you want the feel of the encounter to be. High damage numbers actually applied to members of an adventuring group will perk the players up. They'll get aggressive to stop those regular high damage numbers or scatter, or flee it will provoke action and until a character has no HP, they can still fight, so fights against blasters are shorter.

Downside to this, of course is that when half the party has evasion you lose out on a great many damage spells.

Crowd Control, Action debilitation, and debuff slows the fight down. The longer it takes the adventuring party to close to melee, the longer the fight lasts more spells can be cast, but it comes at the tradeoff of players feeling helpless, weak, stymied. They are present and want to interact, but their characters cannot. This, in my experience, leads to frustration and unhappy tables. Sometimes after succeeding, there are feelings of elation but it is fleeting and the fight is mostly remembered because of all the "BS" the enemy caster did.

Upside is that you can trade banter back and forth, the PCs get a sense of why the fellow is dangerous etc.

The different approaches have their uses, but if one fight takes an hour and people are excited and the other takes 90+ minutes and people are frustrated, I know which one I'll pick more often.

This can all vary by table, of course.


Kasoh wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:
Playing a lich like a blaster caster probably not the best of takes, but you do you my dude.
This comment threw me. What is the best take on this villain, or enemy NPC casters in the first place? I run enemy casters often and either they are support for whatever "brute" monster they have in the fight or I run them as blaster casters.
Blasters can be pretty disappointing if the party has any kind of damage mitigation going. Liches(Especially Necromancer Liches) should be packing minions, crowd control and big impact necromancy spells. Divide, cripple, conquer.

It also greatly depends on what you want the feel of the encounter to be. High damage numbers actually applied to members of an adventuring group will perk the players up. They'll get aggressive to stop those regular high damage numbers or scatter, or flee it will provoke action and until a character has no HP, they can still fight, so fights against blasters are shorter.

Downside to this, of course is that when half the party has evasion you lose out on a great many damage spells.

Crowd Control, Action debilitation, and debuff slows the fight down. The longer it takes the adventuring party to close to melee, the longer the fight lasts more spells can be cast, but it comes at the tradeoff of players feeling helpless, weak, stymied. They are present and want to interact, but their characters cannot. This, in my experience, leads to frustration and unhappy tables. Sometimes after succeeding, there are feelings of elation but it is fleeting and the fight is mostly remembered because of all the "BS" the enemy caster did.

Upside is that you can trade banter back and forth, the PCs get a sense of why the fellow is dangerous etc.

The different approaches have their uses, but if one fight takes an hour and people are excited and the other takes 90+ minutes and people are frustrated, I know which one I'll pick more often.

This can all vary by table, of...

Yep, it all depends on expectations. My players prefer a more simulationist feel so Big Bad Spellcasters will throw the book at them if given the chance. Tacticians leading their forces will have their soldiers delay and ready actions to coordinate.


Just running the encounter utilizing the generic PF1 Lich... you can use terrain and Globe of Invulnerability before the party enters the room to protect the majority of the Skeletons... it be a 1rnd/level immobile spell, but that's 20' you don't have to worry about being nuked as soon as the party enters the room... but they don't know that, let them waste their first spells/actions/turn on the big group of invulnerable skeletons...

Now hit them with Waves of Fatigue as they come through the door. Followed by Cloudkill. Then nuke the cloud with your own Maximized Fireball on round 3... or nuke them with the Maximized Fireball on round 2 when they are Fatigued... use Cloudkill on round 3... and pick them off as they come stumbling out of the cloud...

You can use Wall of Ice to trap them inside the cloud's area... Enervation and paralyzing touch deal with Fatigued, burning, and Con-damaged persons don't stand much of a chance as they meander out of the fog...

Haven't even touched Spectral Hand/Vampiric Touch, or Scortching Ray, yet. Or Circle of Death...

It's as if you clowns murder Liches without ever even giving the most generic ones a chance... anyone, regardless of how powerful they may be, can be senselessly murdered if you stack the odds in the party's favor... nevermind you just broke into someone's immortal sanctuary... their freaking home... just to kill them for being who they are...

As if they have never had to defend their home against barbaric invaders, such as yourselves, in the infinite time they have unlived here? Lol.

Everyone wants to be the first. Lol.

Well, you're not. Plenty of scum mortals have invaded my home for plenty of petty mortal reasons. I am used to your pathetic intrusions... thus, tar pits...

Your party must be very proud of themselves for breaking into someone's home and murdering them in 4 rounds... pat on the back... good job, everyone...

There was also a Ghost? Did it do ANYTHING? Why even have it at all if you doesn't contribute?


I bet a 12th level Witchguard Ranger giving up half their feats for VMC Witch could have lasted more than 4 rounds in the exact encounter... disgrace... you murdered the Lich without a chance... be very proud... a toast to might murderers... may peace be with you... live long, and prosper...

Let me see if I can give you a straight "chained" monk... maybe that will be weak enough to face without nerfing... I gots a wee-Rogue Lich that you will never see coming... so let's see if I can squeak 11 caster levels into some lame-@$$ core monk... might be able to sneak something in with Sohei Weapon Training, actualy... still TOO much... Zen Archer Liches are scary... better go Child of War Fighter so I don't scare everyone away from murdering me in my home...

Nobody wants to disturb an eternal Undead Bloodrager with Blooded Arcane Strike... run away brave Sir Robin... better nerf 11 levels of Bloodrager. Lol.


I mean, yeah VM but... maybe not?

For your expertly written plan to work, leading off with G o I, wouldn't the lich have to KNOW that the party was there, and when they were coming into the room/chamber/area the lich controls?

So, looking at the linked Lich stats/spells, there's no divination there. Giving the party the benefit of the doubt, say the lich didn't know anyone was trying to bust in on it until the PCs got the door open. Then what?

Depending on stealth, timing, player or character knowledge ahead of time, initiatives rolled and so on, could be that the lich and his minions started off on the defensive. If that's the case, what's the plan then?


Maybe the ghost has an attention disorder and randomly meaders back and forth cross the dungeon, through the walls and floors, just passing through... maybe, in its random meanderings it passed behind the party... maybe it mentioned this to the Lich that calls this dungeon home and is currently having a dance party with two dozen skeletons in the center room?

If this Lich has literally nothing to alert it that its home is being invaded by hostile forces, then it is a stupid Lich, and by all means, murder it in 4 rounds flat for being a dummy.

There is a Ghost, though, which could easily explain advanced warning/preparation. There is also just smarter tactics/setting up the environment instead of having the Lich sitting on his thumb in the middle of a bunch of useless skeletons...

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