Con subsystem?

[Moloch1066]

Hi, I just started the Extinction Curse AP and have a player who wants to be a sort of conman who uses the circus to spot potential marks.

I thought it might be fun to have a subsystem for pulling off a con job. Something similar to the Infiltration or Influence subsystems in the GMG.

Is there anything close to this in an existing adventure path or other supplement (I'll even look at 1st ed. stuff), or should I just come up with my own subsystem using these as a guide?

[xNellynelx]

I don't know of any Con sub-system, but you could base it around the Earn Income activity, using his Thievery check in place of the normal earn income rolls.

[Moloch1066]

I hadn't thought of that! I might use that for a basis of how much money they make. I'd still want some sort of risk, so some sort of subsystem to track suspicion and introduce consequences like attention from the authorities.

[Wheldrake]

As you develop this confidence trickster subsystem, you might make use of some of these examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks

It seems obvious you'd make a lot of use of the deception skill, especially the Lie and Create a Diversion actions, and success would depend a lot on your knowledge of the victim (or 'mark') and their susceptibility to deception (mostly measured by will save, but your could imagine other factors).

Keep us appraised of your progress.

[Moloch1066]

Thanks Wheldrake, if you're really interested I will write something up and post it when I'm ready.

In the meantime, I think I'm going to set up a high-stakes poker game. Are there any existing subsystems for gambling/gaming? I'm thinking something simple, 3 rounds, Deception/Thievery to cheat, relevant Lore for strategy, maybe Perception to call a bluff. Success=1 victory point, critical=2VP, the player with the most points at the end wins?

[xNellynelx]

Moloch1066 wrote:

Thanks Wheldrake, if you're really interested I will write something up and post it when I'm ready.

In the meantime, I think I'm going to set up a high-stakes poker game. Are there any existing subsystems for gambling/gaming? I'm thinking something simple, 3 rounds, Deception/Thievery to cheat, relevant Lore for strategy, maybe Perception to call a bluff. Success=1 victory point, critical=2VP, the player with the most points at the end wins?

Not sure if this is a spoiler, so spoiler tags just in case!

Agents of Edgewatch spoilers?:

Agents of Edgewatch, book 3, Adventure Toolbox has Casino Games with the rules for Golem, Bounder, and Century. There weren't rules for gambling in general, but each game had it's own rules.

[Moloch1066]

Perfect! I will check it out. Thanks!

[markrivett]

Moloch1066 wrote:

Hi, I just started the Extinction Curse AP and have a player who wants to be a sort of conman who uses the circus to spot potential marks.

I thought it might be fun to have a subsystem for pulling off a con job. Something similar to the Infiltration or Influence subsystems in the GMG.

Is there anything close to this in an existing adventure path or other supplement (I'll even look at 1st ed. stuff), or should I just come up with my own subsystem using these as a guide?

If simplicity is valuable to you (it is to me when running sub-plots adjacent to my primary plot), the Influence subsystem seems to work well.

First, have the player come up with a con that they want to run. Then design your mark like any other subject of Influence - with resistances, weaknesses, and penalties.

If you wanted to increase the complexity a little, you could run the mark's social circle as a research subsystems where the skill checks rely upon guile and trickery rather than brute intellectual strength.

[Moloch1066]

Simplicity is a huge bonus! I had assumed Influence was more of a loyalty mechanic, so I'll take a closer look.

[Moloch1066]

RE Gambling: I looked at the Edgewatch rules (as they appear on Archives of Nethys https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1452). I was looking for something more abstract, rather than actually playing a side game of poker with a different name, but I might use the game names for flavor.

RE Influence: I think this will work pretty nicely! I may incorporate some elements of the Infiltration Subsystem. Preparation activities like Forgeries, Disguises, and Bribes could feature heavily in many classic scams. And complications like suspicions being raised, bringing along a friend to a meeting.

A lot will depend on the type of confidence scheme the player wants to try, but I have a good starting point. Thanks for all the input!

[Moloch1066]

Well, for anyone who cares, I found the type of abstract card game rules I was looking for in the PF Society Quest: Port Peril Pub Crawl. There's actually a lot of good subsystems in the society quests!

Hope it's ok to share this here (if not, obviously I will delete):

The Watchtower (Encounter A):

Pulling out a deck of cards, Fane invites the PCs to play a game of High Tide, a pirate gambling game where cards are passed face-down while players try to lie about what cards they’ve “added to the tide.” A PC can attempt a Games Lore check (to win fairly), a Thievery check (to surreptitiously hide cards up their sleeve), or a Deception check (to bluff Fane into thinking they have better cards). The game is played in three rounds, and a different PC must attempt the check for each round. The DCs of these checks are 15, 16, and 17 (18, 19, and 20 in Subtier 3–4), respectively.