A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
So, regarding the bolded sentence, how does one determine whose HD to use for the purposes of determining the effects of some evolutions (e.g. Frightful Presence)? On the one hand they are one creature now, the summoner is accessing the ability, and the above rules say nothing about the summoner using the eidolon's HD. On the other hand all evolutions reference the eidolon's HD. Is there something more that would settle this that I'm missing or is it a matter of how your GM interprets the above rules? The intent can be argued either way, so I'm not interested in what anyone thinks the intent was. I'm just wondering whether or not there is some other rules interaction that settles it from a RAW standpoint. Regardless it's a thing I'd run by the GM, but knowing any additional rules to point toward is always nice.
In most other cases when a character gains the special abilities of another creature, such as by polymorph spells, they use their own HD for the effect, or the DC is set by the spell directly.
The synthesist doesn't specify the DC directly so I think the summoner's HD would be used. The only case where the HD/DC of the original creature would matter that I can think of is magic jar. You could make a case for the latter being the closest effect unfortunately. Magic jar is unlike most other effects in PF and I wouldn't model other rules on it - but your GM might.
The Eidolon is tied to the Summoner class levels for HD... Synthesist doesn't change this, right?
What's the question again?
Do you have HD other than from class levels in Summoner?
Those don't count as HD for your Eidolon... or your Fused Eidolon, for that matter.
Eidolon:
... The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels...
Fused Eidolon:
... In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability...
Yes, that is how you would determine the eidolon's HD. But the sythesist and his eidolon aren't separate beings, and the rules say nothing about the sythesist getting the eidolon's HD. So, the synthesist's HD are determined the same way any other PC's hit dice are determined.
The question then is "who is using the eidolon's evolutions when they are fused?" If it's the synthesist who has gained these abilities by fusing with his eidolon, then Frightful Presence uses the synthesist's HD to determine its DC. If it's the eidolon, it uses the eidolon's HD. What's the argument for either when "the two are now one creature"?
I still see it working as any other multiclass Summoner... only Summoner class levels count for Eidolon HD. So for all purposes Eidolon, HD is derived from Summoner class levels... unless otherwise stated...
We're still not talking about the same thing, and I'm not sure how to communicate what I mean better. Multiclassing has nothing to do with it. There is no eidolon and summoner. There is only the fusion. They are one creature. How many hit dice does it have?
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For me, you are trying to add something that isn't in the ability.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.
Even if fused with the summoner, the eidolon has a separate pool of hit points and is a separate entity with his HD.
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.
The eidolon abilities, not the synthesist abilities. You use the edilon HD as they are the eidolon abilities.
Unless you can find something that says something explicitly different, you use the normal rules for eidolons.
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Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) use his own Hit Dice or his eidolon's Hit Dice for evolutions based on Hit Dice, such as Breath Weapon and Web? What about his BAB for making attacks?
The synthesist uses the eidolon's Hit Dice for the effects of evolutions, not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice.
When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).
posted August 2011 | back to top
When fused, the Synthesist uses the Eidolon's HD/BAB... the Eidolon's HD are derived from Summoner levels... there is an Eidolon, the Synthesist fuses with it... in all other cases it functions as the Summoner's Eidolon, which has HD derived from Summoner class levels... I think...
I literally quoted as much as I know earlier... that particular FAQ, like many others, just seems to make the waters more muddied, rather than clear anything up.
One thing the FAQ does say, is to use the Eidolon's HD, not the character's total HD... BAB stacks, HD is not stated to stack...
Therefore the general rule applies that Eidolon HD are derived from Summoner levels.
The FAQ says "not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice..." but Summoner class levels are the only way for an Eidolon to gain HD... outside of whatever Boon Eidolon or whatever feat/trait/stone/class ability/FCB may boost it further...
I don't actually know what "summoner Hit Dice" means...
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When fused, the Synthesist uses the Eidolon's HD/BAB... the Eidolon's HD are derived from Summoner levels... there is an Eidolon, the Synthesist fuses with it... in all other cases it functions as the Summoner's Eidolon, which has HD derived from Summoner class levels... I think...
I literally quoted as much as I know earlier... that particular FAQ, like many others, just seems to make the waters more muddied, rather than clear anything up.
One thing the FAQ does say, is to use the Eidolon's HD, not the character's total HD... BAB stacks, HD is not stated to stack...
Therefore the general rule applies that Eidolon HD are derived from Summoner levels.
The FAQ says "not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice..." but Summoner class levels are the only way for an Eidolon to gain HD... outside of whatever Boon Eidolon or whatever feat/trait/stone/class ability/FCB may boost it further...
I don't actually know what "summoner Hit Dice" means...
Yes, the eidolon HDs are determined from the synthesist level, but the eidolon abilities and available evolutions are based on the eidolon HDs.
dr. kekyll wanted to use the (higher) summoner HDs to determine those abilities, but the rules clearly state that you use the eidolon HD.
Fused Eidolon doesn't change anything.
dr. kekyll wanted to use the (higher) summoner HDs to determine those abilities, but the rules clearly state that you use the eidolon HD.
No, dr. kekyll clearly wanted to understand the rules. I suppose I should still thank you for sharing the FAQ that didn't show up when I did an internet search, but I don't appreciate you attributing malicious intent to me. Nothing in a FAQ is "clearly stated" because you have to hunt down a FAQ entry for that clarification. Congratulations on coming off as a pretentious jerk though.
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dr. kekyll wanted to use the (higher) summoner HDs to determine those abilities, but the rules clearly state that you use the eidolon HD.No, dr. kekyll clearly wanted to understand the rules. I suppose I should still thank you for sharing the FAQ that didn't show up when I did an internet search, but I don't appreciate you attributing malicious intent to me. Nothing in a FAQ is "clearly stated" because you have to hunt down a FAQ entry for that clarification. Congratulations on coming off as a pretentious jerk though.
"Wanted to use" isn't malicious intent. Plenty of people want to use something in a way that some rules stop and ask if it is rule compliant.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that saying "wanted to use" offend you.
Considering I never said I wanted to use the summoner's HD, you attributed a position to me that I never claimed to hold while simultaneously pointing out that the rules that disallow that position were clear. If you don't see how that could have implied malicious intent, then perhaps you should reexamine your own communication skills.