Gunslinger "Misfire" Clarification - Condition, Check, Tag? (Jam as a tag?)

[M1C4A3L]

Misfire has a condition where a weapon can misfire if improperly cared for -
Misfire: Firearms that have been improperly cared for or subjected to unusual strain can misfire. If you attempt to fire a firearm that was used the previous day and that hasn’t been cleaned and maintained since then, attempt a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload and fire the weapon again. Once you’ve spent at least an hour cleaning and maintaining a weapon, you don’t need to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says otherwise. A weapon can also misfire as a result of using a specific ability"

This seems to suggest that the Misfire is a condition of firing that gun until it is cleaned.

However, several feats can 'cause misfire' Such as Risky Reload
"You’ve practiced a technique for rapidly reloading your firearm, but it’s a dangerous gamble with your firearm’s functionality. Interact to reload a firearm, then make a Strike with that firearm. If the Strike fails, the firearm misfires. "

Does the Misfire in Risky Reload mean that the gun is "Jammed, until you take an interaction to clear it - as if you had misfired"
Or
the gun is "now under the misfire condition, and requires a DC 5 flat check to continue using until cleaned?"

Additionally: is the "Misfire" on the end of Risky Reload risk turning the previous 'failed Strike' into a Critical Failure Strike - as mentioned by failing a misfire flat DC in the misfire section?

[Michael Sayre]

The DC 5 flat check is to see if the gun misfires. Abilities that say the gun misfires skip straight to the effects of a misfire, which is that the attack becomes a critical failure and you have to use an Interact action to clear the jam before firing again.

[shroudb]

let's parce the text:

Quote:

1)Misfire: Firearms that have been improperly cared for or subjected to unusual strain can misfire. If you attempt to fire a firearm that was used the previous day and that hasn’t been cleaned and maintained since then, attempt a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this 2)misfire check,[b] [b]3)the weapon misfires and jams. The attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload and fire the weapon again. Once you’ve spent at least an hour cleaning and maintaining a weapon, you don’t need to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says otherwise. A weapon can also misfire as a result of using a specific ability""

tldr: it's an effect.

1)This is a header, it expains what the next paragraph will speak about

2)this is the check for a weapon that hasn't been properly cared for. It's called "misfire check" (not simply misfire)

3)this is what happens when the weapons misfires (from either a failed misfire check OR from another effect that says that it causes misfire). It causes the effect described afterwards.

"misfire" itself isn't a condition, it's the effect caused by either failing a check on a not-cared weapon or from other feats. If you wanted to name something like a tag or a condition it would have been something like "not cleaned" which is what causes a check when you use the item, and that check may cause a misfire.

misfire itself is an effect.

[M1C4A3L]

Michael Sayre wrote:

The DC 5 flat check is to see if the gun misfires. Abilities that say the gun misfires skip straight to the effects of a misfire, which is that the attack becomes a critical failure and you have to use an Interact action to clear the jam before firing again.

That makes the most sense, Thanks!

This assumes that it also doesn't force any additional DC 5 flat checks after using the ability.

[Sabazius]

I think the wording of this wants to be the other way around. It seems far more likely that a player experiences misfiring because of an ability which says "your weapon misfires" than because they failed to clean their gun in the morning, which I would assume would be part of their daily preparations. As written, it's not really clear to me (or those I've been talking to on the Pathfinder 2e discord) what actually happens when you misfire.

With Michael's clarification, any failed strike with Scatter Blast is a crit fail which destroys your gun; I'd never use that ability.

[Sabazius]

Proposed revision:

Misfire: Firearms that have been subjected to unusual strain can misfire. When you misfire, the weapon jams, the attack becomes a critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload and fire the weapon again.
A weapon can also misfire if improperly cared for. If you attempt to fire a firearm that was used the previous day and that hasn’t been cleaned and maintained since then, attempt a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires. Once you’ve spent at least an hour cleaning and maintaining a weapon, you don’t need to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says otherwise.

[Ascalaphus]

I think the daily care should be explicitly folded into daily preparations.

As I understand it, if you are a Wizard with Witch, Alchemist and Cleric multiclasses, you still need only an hour in the morning for your preparations, not an hour per multiclass.

So for the sake of sanity, cleaning your guns should be in there too.

Not that you couldn't do it after lunch if you had to. But just that normally, you do it as part of your daily preparations.

[Sabazius]

Having thought about and discussed it further, it's worth noting that this will also apply to any guns you find while exploring that haven't been used, as well as possibly weapons you take off a defeated opponent who didn't take care of their equipment, so it does benefit from being called out explicitly.
It's also another big penalty on wielding multiple guns. If you carry a rifle and a pistol, you need to spend two hours a day cleaning them, and the idea of playing a pirate who carries six one-shot pistols and just drops them once fired to collect them after combat becomes completely unworkable, even with Alternative Bonus Progression to get around the rune cost.

[beowulf99]

Michael Sayre wrote:

The DC 5 flat check is to see if the gun misfires. Abilities that say the gun misfires skip straight to the effects of a misfire, which is that the attack becomes a critical failure and you have to use an Interact action to clear the jam before firing again.

Wait wait wait. Am I understanding that correctly?

So a Gunslinger uses Scatter blast with a Blunderbuss. They miss. The weapon misfires. It then explodes?

So really, there is no "failure" state for Scatter Blast? If you fail, your gun blows?

The way Misfire reads, the Critical Failure appears to be tied to the flat check, rather than the actual misfiring of the weapon.

GG PT "Misfire" wrote:

...attempt a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload and fire the weapon again.

The way those sentences read, the misfire and the attack becoming a critical miss are the result of failing the flat check.

If that is how it works, Scatter Blast just went from pretty good to avoid at all costs.

[shroudb]

beowulf99 wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

The DC 5 flat check is to see if the gun misfires. Abilities that say the gun misfires skip straight to the effects of a misfire, which is that the attack becomes a critical failure and you have to use an Interact action to clear the jam before firing again.

Wait wait wait. Am I understanding that correctly?

So a Gunslinger uses Scatter blast with a Blunderbuss. They miss. The weapon misfires. It then explodes?

So really, there is no "failure" state for Scatter Blast? If you fail, your gun blows?

The way Misfire reads, the Critical Failure appears to be tied to the flat check, rather than the actual misfiring of the weapon.

GG PT "Misfire" wrote:

...attempt a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload and fire the weapon again.

The way those sentences read, the misfire and the attack becoming a critical miss are the result of failing the flat check.

If that is how it works, Scatter Blast just went from pretty good to avoid at all costs.

basically "misfire" is the effect.

the flat check is a "misfire check" that if you fail you get a misfire.

but if something directly states that it causes a "misfire" (as opposed to a misfire check) then you go directly to misfire, which is indeed "critical fail on teh attack and jammed weapon"

[beowulf99]

shroudb wrote:

basically "misfire" is the effect.

the flat check is a "misfire check" that if you fail you get a misfire.

but if something directly states that it causes a "misfire" (as opposed to a misfire check) then you go directly to misfire, which is indeed "critical fail on teh attack and jammed weapon"

The way Misfire reads, I don't think this is the intended case though.

GG PT PG. 4 "Misfire" wrote:

If you attempt

to fire a firearm that was used the previous day and that
hasn’t been cleaned and maintained since then, attempt
a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you
fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The
attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use
an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload
and fire the weapon again. Once you’ve spent at least an
hour cleaning and maintaining a weapon, you don’t need
to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says
otherwise. A weapon can also misfire as a result of using
a specific ability.

Note that the line stating that, "The attack also becomes a critical failure," is not addressing Misfire directly, but is written as a consequence of failing the flat check due to trying to fire an unmaintained weapon.

Basically, "Misfire" itself reads as being a jam, a failure to fire. Misfiring is a consequence of failing the flat check. An attack becoming a critical miss is also a consequence of failing the flat check, but is never stated as being a default consequence of "misfire".

And again, I'd like a clarification on how this impacts Scatter Blast. It's the only feat present that has a "cascade" effect, failure becoming a critical failure, that is this bad. Risky Reload, you already failed the attack, no further issue besides having to clear the jam. Alchemical shot is the same, you already take the damage as a result of failing the attack. Smoke curtain doesn't even have a detrimental side effect, beyond having to clear the jam.

This leaves Scatter Blast as the Only misfire trigger that compounds on itself. I would like to know if that's intentional or not.

[shroudb]

beowulf99 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

basically "misfire" is the effect.

the flat check is a "misfire check" that if you fail you get a misfire.

but if something directly states that it causes a "misfire" (as opposed to a misfire check) then you go directly to misfire, which is indeed "critical fail on teh attack and jammed weapon"

The way Misfire reads, I don't think this is the intended case though.

GG PT PG. 4 "Misfire" wrote:

If you attempt

to fire a firearm that was used the previous day and that
hasn’t been cleaned and maintained since then, attempt
a DC 5 flat check before making your attack roll. If you
fail this misfire check, the weapon misfires and jams. The
attack also becomes a critical failure, and you must use
an Interact action to clear the jam before you can reload
and fire the weapon again. Once you’ve spent at least an
hour cleaning and maintaining a weapon, you don’t need
to roll for a misfire until the next day unless an effect says
otherwise. A weapon can also misfire as a result of using
a specific ability.

Note that the line stating that, "The attack also becomes a critical failure," is not addressing Misfire directly, but is written as a consequence of failing the flat check due to trying to fire an unmaintained weapon.

Basically, "Misfire" itself reads as being a jam, a failure to fire. Misfiring is a consequence of failing the flat check. An attack becoming a critical miss is also a consequence of failing the flat check, but is never stated as being a default consequence of "misfire".

And again, I'd like a clarification on how this impacts Scatter Blast. It's the only feat present that has a "cascade" effect, failure becoming a critical failure, that is this bad. Risky Reload, you already failed the attack, no further issue besides having to clear the jam. Alchemical shot is the same, you already take the damage as a result of failing the attack. Smoke curtain doesn't even have a detrimental side effect, beyond having to clear the jam.

This leaves...

we already have clarification that's this is how it works:

Michael Sayre wrote:

The DC 5 flat check is to see if the gun misfires. Abilities that say the gun misfires skip straight to the effects of a misfire, which is that the attack becomes a critical failure and you have to use an Interact action to clear the jam before firing again.

if something causes you to directly misfire, it's exactly the same as if you already failed the "check to misfire".