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A large sized swarm is usually two squares by two squares, but can it reshape itself into, say, 1x4 line? Or any of the Tetris shapes, basically?
I ran a swarm encounter last week and the PCs all retreated into the 5 foot wide corridor and made ranged attacks. In 1e the swarm would have simply reshaped and followed, but in 2E I have seen no indication it can do that, so I didn’t have it happen.
Without this ability, a swarm could enter the 5 foot corridor only by using the (I think kind of ridiculous) squeezing rules.
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A large sized swarm is usually two squares by two squares, but can it reshape itself into, say, 1x4 line? Or any of the Tetris shapes, basically?
I ran a swarm encounter last week and the PCs all retreated into the 5 foot wide corridor and made ranged attacks. In 1e the swarm would have simply reshaped and followed, but in 2E I have seen no indication it can do that, so I didn’t have it happen.
Without this ability, a swarm could enter the 5 foot corridor only by using the (I think kind of ridiculous) squeezing rules.
GM call, I think. A reasonable ruling might be that swarms can't purposely manipulate their shapes like that because they aren't as organized as a troop, but I certainly wouldn't apply squeezing.
I'd say the a swarm should conform to the space available. So for the 5' hall, I'd say it fills a 10'x5' area: It's not like it's a single solid object so more individuals in the space isn't affecting things. This isn't what the rules say though: they are silent which means you treat them just like normal monsters without DM fiat.
I don't think I'd allow reshape, because in most cases a 5ft wife 20ft long swarm is more likely to hit several characters than a 10ft x 10ft. But, I wouldn't let that stop a swarm from entering a 5ft wide (or even smaller) area. I would simply reduce their width and maintain the 10ft length, with my reasoning being they squeeze together some (but not enough for squeezing penalties) or start to form a 2nd layer running on top of the first.
I attacked my party with three Large centipede swarms in a cave system last week. The druid's Fireball failed against them due to an unusually low damage roll, so the battle was tougher than I expected. The party retreated to a 5-foot-wide tunnel while they sought another solution.
I had one swarm take a Squeeze action to follow them. The swarm had Acrobatics +9 so the check was not difficult. I viewed it as the individual centipede switching to a different mass-movement pattern to work in unison in the more compressed space. The centipedes had Climb Speed 30 feet, so I viewed their new distribution as some centipedes climbing on the walls.
The swarm mind of the centipede swarm has no real intelligence (Int -5). I don't see the swarm as able to deliberately plan a new shape. Instead, it physically responds to narrow terrain just like a human's footsteps adapt to walking up stairs. Thus, an Acrobatics check is appropriate. If the swarm could voluntarily take a new shape, then a skill based on Intelligence or Wisdom would be more appropriate, perhaps Survival.
My game has been using Roll20 since March. One player was confused by the 2-square by 2-squae centipede-swarm token overlapping the stone walls when put into the tunnel. I manually adjusted the token shape to 2-squares by 1-square.
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I had one swarm take a Squeeze action to follow them. The swarm had Acrobatics +9 so the check was not difficult.
The problem is that without the Quick Squeeze feat, Squeeze is an exploration mode action that takes a full minute to move either 5 feet or 10 feet on a critical success. I'm not even sure that you can take Exploration Mode actions in Encounter Mode, but even if you did, the 30 actions that each PC would get to take in the time it took the swarm to move 5 feet would likely prove an issue.
I see this issue in the same realm as tripping oozes where GM adjudication (not "fiat") should step in. PF2 has avoided addressing many of the (non-)issues that are too obvious to bother noting (given limited page space). Saying a mosquito swarm has issues with 5' gaps seems too silly to accept. Could this leeway with auto-squeezing swarms leave openings for GM abuse? Yes, but that'll always and only be a factor w/ abusive GMs. If your GM can't adjudicate wisely, then "fiat" would become the appropriate word.
And I think part of the reason (alongside brevity) Paizo hasn't set rigorous limits is because there could always be an exception, i.e. if Paizo said swarms were immune to grapple, that'd suck if a player thought of using a curtain to do so. And putting "because" for every monster's ability so that GMs would know of exceptions would be an exhausting task.
Note also that in PF2, RAW states that RAW is no longer king, likely because the rules idolatry of PF1 led to many bizarre impossibilities and kooky exploits.
I fail to see how a curtain could stop a swarm.
Also, if a swarm can change it's shape to fit in a narrow hallway or something, what's to stop if from changing from a 2x2 shape to a 1x4 shape or some weird Tetris zigzag to hit players it maybe shouldn't be able to?
I had one swarm take a Squeeze action to follow them. The swarm had Acrobatics +9 so the check was not difficult.The problem is that without the Quick Squeeze feat, Squeeze is an exploration mode action that takes a full minute to move either 5 feet or 10 feet on a critical success. I'm not even sure that you can take Exploration Mode actions in Encounter Mode, but even if you did, the 30 actions that each PC would get to take in the time it took the swarm to move 5 feet would likely prove an issue.
I guess the centipede swarm did not use the Squeeze action itself; instead, it made a similar Acrobatics skill check to fit into a space smaller than its usual size.
The Squeeze action says, "This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check." Half the usual space is not exceptionally tight; nevertheless, some kind of coordination check seemed appropriate before the centipede swarm could enter the tunnel.
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Also, if a swarm can change it's shape to fit in a narrow hallway or something, what's to stop if from changing from a 2x2 shape to a 1x4 shape or some weird Tetris zigzag to hit players it maybe shouldn't be able to?
Honestly, I think swarms should be able to take any contiguous shape. For a 2x2 swarm, that means the full Tetris.
I fail to see how a curtain could stop a swarm.
Also, if a swarm can change it's shape to fit in a narrow hallway or something, what's to stop if from changing from a 2x2 shape to a 1x4 shape or some weird Tetris zigzag to hit players it maybe shouldn't be able to?
The idea was to drape a large curtain (at least 10' x 10' if not larger) over the swarm in an attempt to grapple it. Funny thing is, one can still Shove a mosquito or centipede swarm, which makes no sense w/o some other factor added.
Who says that a swarm "shouldn't be able to" do that?
That reasoning feels a bit circular, having the premise that they shouldn't be able to to support that they shouldn't be able to.
Swarm miniatures used to be 4 1-square minis (or cardboard cutouts) so that swarms could move and become any Tetris piece. This includes mindless ones. As a GM I wouldn't go out of my way to make a 4x1 configuration, but if one tasty treat moved in such a way that it'd be natural for some of the swarm to follow while the others remained on another tasty treat, it'd happen. Or in a corridor of course, though if they could fly they may simply fill upward instead if there's room, whatever's closest to 10'x10'x10' (w/ exceptions).
I had one swarm take a Squeeze action to follow them. The swarm had Acrobatics +9 so the check was not difficult.The problem is that without the Quick Squeeze feat, Squeeze is an exploration mode action that takes a full minute to move either 5 feet or 10 feet on a critical success. I'm not even sure that you can take Exploration Mode actions in Encounter Mode, but even if you did, the 30 actions that each PC would get to take in the time it took the swarm to move 5 feet would likely prove an issue.I guess the centipede swarm did not use the Squeeze action itself; instead, it made a similar Acrobatics skill check to fit into a space smaller than its usual size.
The Squeeze action says, "This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check." Half the usual space is not exceptionally tight; nevertheless, some kind of coordination check seemed appropriate before the centipede swarm could enter the tunnel.
I agree with Mathmuse.
The rule says that when the space you enter isn't exceptionally tight, you just consider that difficult terrain. It makes sense to me that a swarm that is taking a space 10ft wide can't immediately reshape and seamlessly pass into a tighter space: they have to lose a bit of time (aka Stride speed) to do that.It's just like pouring water into a funnel: reduce the section area of the funnel, and the water will take more time to pass through.
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My solution to the "big swarm in a narrow space" issue is the same as any "big creature in a narrow space."
I simply consider tighter terrain to be difficult terrain.
So, say I've got a big and beefy Ogre, large sized, so 2x2 squares on the grid. The players back off down a 1 square wide corridor. The Ogre can pursue, but since it's shoulders are brushing against the walls and it doesn't have the space to use its normal gait, it considers the corridor to be difficult terrain.
Let's say we have a Huge Bulette, 3x3, that's trying to pursue down that same 1 square wide corridor. That's a VERY tight fit. The Bulette not only has the walls pressing in, but it has to contort its body to fit down the narrow passage. This becomes Greater Difficult terrain for the Huge creature.
A Gargantuan creature is just plain out of luck in a 1 square wide corridor. It'll have to go around, or start smashing the place to widen the corridor (assuming that's possible).
I don't see why swarms would act any different. I know that real-life examples are perilous in a discussion about game rules, but I do know that my bees move about far quicker on open comb than they do through a narrow hive entrance, and I know they move about faster if they're flying in open air than they do when crawling on open comb. So... It seems reasonable enough to me that a swarm of any sort would suffer from more individuals bumping into each other if it enters a more narrow space, and all that jostling ought to slow it down. To the same degree as an Ogre moving through a narrow space? I dunno... but it feels close enough to me that I'm got going to stress about finding a different solution.
...I know that real-life examples are perilous in a discussion about game rules, but I do know that my bees move about far quicker on open comb than they do through a narrow hive entrance, and I know they move about faster if they're flying in open air than they do when crawling on open comb. So... It seems reasonable enough to me that a swarm of any sort would suffer from more individuals bumping into each other if it enters a more narrow space, and all that jostling ought to slow it down. To the same degree as an Ogre moving through a narrow space? I dunno... but it feels close enough to me that I'm got going to stress about finding a different solution.
Though real-life scenarios are not valid for determining game rules, such comparisons are cool. They add a dimension to envisioning the game. Thanks for the story about the bees.