Does a penalty to a save also penalize the save DC?

[Ravingdork]

I ask because one of my players just picked up Bon Mot with his Swashbuckler, thinking to use it to penalize his foe's Will Save DCs so that they are more susceptible to his Fascinating Performance, and thus more likely to net him his panache.

Would that work out the way my player thinks? I don't see any mention of the save DC in Bon Mot, just the save itself. Furthermore, I've seen other abilities which differentiate between the two, which leads me to believe that there isn't much synergy to be found here.

[Cyouni]

The DC, as far as I'm aware, is the save+10. So penalizing the save would implicitly penalize the DC.

[Ravingdork]

Cyouni wrote:

The DC, as far as I'm aware, is the save+10. So penalizing the save would implicitly penalize the DC.

That's my Player's thinking too, but I'm looking for confirmation.

[Arachnofiend]

"The DC for a saving throw is 10 + the total modifier for that saving throw."

The total modifier would definitely include any penalties so Bon Mot will apply.

[RPGnoremac]

I am confused. Why wouldn't it change it? It states The target is distracted and takes a –3 status penalty to Perception and Will saves for 1 minute

Calculating DC "Your DC for a given statistic is 10 + the total modifier for that statistic"

So they have -3/2 to will and perception and fascinating performance is against perception. So their modifier would be perception -3.

I am more curious why not just be the Wit Swashbuckler and save a step? He could just cast bon mot and get panache that way.

[Arachnofiend]

Penalizing saves does nothing if you don't have anything that calls for a save - I can see the wisdom in wanting Bon Mot for more reliable Leading Dances against tougher targets.

[RPGnoremac]

Well I guess I just figured bon mot was more helping allies land their spells better. I guess I never really thought of how to use it for yourself. That is an interesting though, maybe I have to look into swashbuckler more...

[Ravingdork]

RPGnoremac wrote:

I am confused. Why wouldn't it change it?

I'm having my doubts because I've seen abilities that apply their modifiers to ONLY saves or ONLY DCs.

Makes me think that maybe both need to be called out for it to effect both, which isn't the case with Bon Mot.

Not saying that's the way it is. Just describing my thought process on the matter.

[Squiggit]

Which other abilities are you thinking of?

[Staffan Johansson]

Squiggit wrote:

Which other abilities are you thinking of?

Observant halflings get +1 to their Perception DC but not to Perception checks. That one specifically calls out the distinction though, and I think that's a good rule of thumb: if nothing else is said, any bonus or penalty to a value also affects that value's DC.

[PlantThings]

Huh, I never noticed these distinctions before.
Goblin Song has similar wording to Bon Mot with the exception that it specifies Perception checks.

Goblin Song: "...penalty to Perception checks and Will saves..."
Bon Mot: "...penalty to Perception and Will saves..."