Hey folks, I am currently playing the Agents of Edgewatch AP, and figured an Investigator would be a natural fit. The trouble is, I am struggling to find a niche/things to do in a fight. The character is currently level 4, with the following setup:
Hobgoblin Investigator (Alchemical Sciences) 4
Learned Guard Prodigy Background
Str 8
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 14
Cha 14
Trained Skills: Arcana, Crafting (Expert), Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Medicine (Expert), Nature, Occultism (Expert), Religion, Society, Survival
Ancestry Feat: Alchemical Scholar
Class Feat: Known Weaknesses
Background Skill Feat: Recognize Spell
Class Feat 2: Wizard Dedication
Skill Feat 2: Continual Recovery
Skill Feat 3: Ward Medic
General Feat 3: Prescient Planner
Class Feat 4: Ongoing Investigation
Skill Feat 4: Magical Crafting
We have an abundance of melee characters, so I am currently an archer. Another party member is likely retraining to pick up the Medicine stuff so I don't have to anymore (he wants to heal), which means I could do some more in-combat skill feat stuff, though those options seem to come online at level 7/Master proficiency.
My GM has also graciously offered me the opportunity to rebuild during our upcoming downtime, and I haven't yet decided what I want to do.
I have been looking at doing some crafting stuff with Snarecrafter/Talisman Dabbler/Scroll Trickster, but those seem...only okay, and I currently have Wizard Multiclass Dedication, but the spell slots I get as a Wizard are few and feat intensive, so I'm not sure it's worth taking that whole 5-feat chain to always be 2-3 spell levels behind.
I also have the option of rebuilding completely from a mechanical sense, as long as I stay true to the character concept. If I go that route, the sensible choices seem to be Alchemist, Ranger (possibly using Outwit and/or Monster Hunter feat chain), or Wizard.
I can likely change my ability scores, provided I continue to be a smug, nerdy, know-it-all Hobgoblin.
Any suggestions or ideas are appreciated, thanks in advance!
tl;dr: I'm looking for a reasonable way to retool this guy to contribue in fights, from range, without being an Occult caster (we have 3 melee dudes and a Witch, presently).
Was also going to suggest going Rogue. They make reasonably decent ranged combatants, and do the Skill Monkey game better than just about anyone else.
Could also be an interesting story beat for your character: The investigator turned rogue, disillusioned with the structures of Law and taking matters into his own hands.
That said:The important thing is to point out more clearly what you are disatisfied with with the current character.
I think my biggest dissatisfaction comes from not having anything worthwhile to do with my actions if my Devise roll is bad. If I had a reliable, interesting collection of abilities or options, I would be much happier.
I'm not really worried about being the best at the things I can do, I just want to have reliable things to do when my Devise roll is terrible.
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Unless I am missing something (and I apologize if I am) your Devise A Stratagem is for melee strikes not all attack rolls. So if your Devise A Stratagem roll is poor I would believe you would probably want to default to Wizard cantrips to consistently due INT based damage and save your actual spell slots for the right opportunities. Nice things about the Cantrips is their scaling is automatic.
This is all to maximize your return on INT for combat damage. Another option would be too use your Quick Tinctures for Elixirs of Life for a little extra healing on yourself or an ally if they are adjacent. Drakeheart could be a good defensive option if you no longer want to Recall Knowledge (convenient because you can voluntarily end it with Final Surge).
In addition I could see a strategy of Drinking an Elixir of Cognition to help with your next Recall Knowledge which if you critically succeed you could convey knowledge to your allies and grant them all +1 on strikes through Known Weaknesses. It has the Drawback of a penalty on weapon attack rolls but if you are going to substitute a weapon attack roll with your Devise A Stratagem value (like if you actually got a good roll and have a gauge on the target's AC) or a Cantrip (if you got a bad Devise A Stratagem roll) then this is a penalty you can avoid. Having a good knowledge of Quick Tincture options just opens a lot of doors.
If these INT based strategies overall are not something you enjoy you may want to look at adjusting stats so you can better Demoralize with your CHA/Intimidation. Good way to debuff when other options aren't great.
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Unless I am missing something (and I apologize if I am) your Devise A Stratagem is for melee strikes not all attack rolls. So if your Devise A Stratagem roll is poor I would believe you would probably want to default to Wizard cantrips to consistently due INT based damage and save your actual spell slots for the right opportunities. Nice things about the Cantrips is their scaling is automatic.
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It includes strikes with ranged weapons too.
APG (pg57)
When you make this substitution, you can also add your Intelligence modifier to your attack roll instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, provided your Strike uses an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon (which must be agile or finesse if it’s a melee weapon with the thrown trait), or a sap.
Devise a Stratagem is for both kinds of rolls, but I'd still aim to have a decent attack stat.
Devise a stratagem allows you to replace your roll and use intelligence instead. But if you flub the intelligence based roll, you could potentially still get something in with the regular roll.
Dex is also useful for AC, since you are in light armor. Even people with heavy armor would find it kind of hard to have less than 12 dex.
Yeah I think most characters are going to want 16 DEX/18 INT or 16 STR/18 INT... I could see some very niche builds that assume upkeep on Drakeheart Mutagen so you can have good armor with poor physical stats. Might be a way to go for fully support oriented builds where your main MAP action is Athletic Strategist stuff with a whip, though this is super niche and probably not very good.
Devise a Stratagem is for both kinds of rolls, but I'd still aim to have a decent attack stat.
Devise a stratagem allows you to replace your roll and use intelligence instead. But if you flub the intelligence based roll, you could potentially still get something in with the regular roll.
Dex is also useful for AC, since you are in light armor. Even people with heavy armor would find it kind of hard to have less than 12 dex.
A good reason to go ranged is that it's easier to switch to another target and not use your Devise a stratagem roll if that roll is bad. It's much harder to do this in melee.
Yeah I think most characters are going to want 16 DEX/18 INT or 16 STR/18 INT...
That's what I've seen.
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I think Dex 14/Int 18 is defensible on a ranged character. It's not quite optimal, but it's close enough to be entirely functional. Sure, you're down 1 AC, but that's only for four levels, and down -1 on attacks, but that's only for backup attacks if Devise fails. It's a lot like Dex 14 on a pure spellcaster, really, it's suboptimal but within the range of completely viable.
Lower than that on your non-Int attack stat is definitely not something I'd recommend on any Investigator.
With Dex 14/Int 18 you can also pick up armor training and wear a chain shirt for the first 5 levels to optimize your AC (at level 1 if you're a human). Retrain out of the feat when it's good to ofc.
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Okay, now that all of you mention it, the Dex of 8 really is a major limiting factor. If I had a higher Dex, I could attempt a shot on another enemy for lower damage, or pull out a Bola for a ranged trip using Dex, etc.
All of this has led to me retooling my ability scores, so I end up at:
Str 8
Dex 16/14
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 12/14
Cha 10
I'm not really using that Charisma anyway, so I could do either a 16/12 or 14/14 Dex/Wis split.
I think I'm going to jump into Pathfinder Agent Dedication at 2, pick up Thorough Reports at 4, and play with that because it seems super fun, possibly taking Scrollmaster Dedication for Bestiary Scholar later.
I learned/realized in this thread that Quick Tincture is effectively 2 actions, and not 3. I'd been playing with it as a 3-action activity (1 to draw the vial, 1 to make it, 1 to drink), but having a bandolier or something to draw as part of Quick Tincture was a *game changer,* and last night I had a lot of success using my vials on the turns with bad rolls.
I appreciate all of the advice a bunch! The last thing I'm really kicking around now is whether I want to stick with Alchemical Sciences Investigator, or switch over to Mastermind Rogue, and use my Recall Knowledges to get sneak attack. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences about Mastermind and/or how they compare to an Investigator? Losing the Alchemy stuff would sting, but doing even more with Recall Knowledge could be fun.
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If you are dropping cha, then you might want to invest the freed up skill points into lore skills.
If you grab the right ones like Lore(undead), then you could do recall knowledge based purely off of int. I doubt it would give you better DCs since it is slightly general, but it is still working off of your good stat.
Although you might keep wisdom up relatively high anyway due to medicine.
Okay, now that all of you mention it, the Dex of 8 really is a major limiting factor. If I had a higher Dex, I could attempt a shot on another enemy for lower damage, or pull out a Bola for a ranged trip using Dex, etc.
Uses strength after the most recent errata/faq.
If you are dropping cha, then you might want to invest the freed up skill points into lore skills.
Loremaster archetype is quite good to get every lore and the other feats in it work for recall well and it having a skill feat gets you through it quickly. Plus with the errata, I think you can now take Loremaster's Etude without a focus pool already so you can pick focus spell and focus pool with it.
Uses strength after the most recent errata/faq.Okay, now that all of you mention it, the Dex of 8 really is a major limiting factor. If I had a higher Dex, I could attempt a shot on another enemy for lower damage, or pull out a Bola for a ranged trip using Dex, etc.
As far as I know, it was always a Str check. But yes, now it's 100% confirmed it's str now.
LTTP/Necro but I was listening to a campaign with an investigator and realized a good application for devise a stratagem is crit fishing.
So power attack like feats work perfectly and deadly weapons.
Which brought me to investigator with fighter archetype for power attack / dual handed assault with a light pick as a weapon (fatal d8). What I haven't settled on is what to do once you get a bad roll. A cantrip w/o attack rolls would be perfect or just some skill actions.
Stats would have to be 14 Str 14 dex as a minimum to get access to fighter dedication.