Psychic Bloodline and Undercasting

[Alran Dunline]

So my psychic sorcerer is now level 8 and getting closer and closer to hitting level 9 and getting the Undercasting Prodigy ability, will copy and paste that here for you all as reference;

Undercasting Prodigy (Sp)
Starting at 9th level, whenever you gain a new level of spells, you automatically replace any psychic bloodline spells that can be undercast with the highest-level version you can cast in your list of spells known. For example, at 9th level, you would replace mind thrust I, id insinuation I, and ego whip I with mind thrust IV, id insinuation III, and ego whip II, respectively, as spells known.

So this is awesome, all these lower level bloodline spells get upgraded and I can still just undercast them, but do I get new spells as well? I am losing a lower level spell known to gain the higher level versions of these spells, and normally if you learned a new higher level version of a psychic you would replace the older lower level one with a new one. But these are bloodline spells. So I am wondering if I would or would not learn a new spell to replace the ones that I lose? I know I am instantly gaining 3 4th level spells, but do I get new 1st, 2nd, and 3rd levels as well? I am guessing I likely do not as that would be a bit crazy, but I believe it never hurts to ask. Anyway, thank you for reading, any insight you can give, and have a wonderful day.

[ShadowcatX]

You get only what it says, nothing more. So no you don't replace your spells.

[Theaitetos]

Quote:

So I am wondering if I would or would not learn a new spell to replace the ones that I lose?

Keep in mind that bloodline bonus spells do NOT count against your sorcerer Spells Known, they are added for free to your Spells Known. So you don't lose any Spell Known of any level at all, you only ever get more spells:

You choose your Spells Known as normal for a sorcerer; you cannot choose the psychic bloodline spells [usually, since they are not on the sorcerer spell list]. These psychic bloodline spells are added to your Spells Known additionally to your normal Spells Known. You do not get any additional 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, ... level spells from Undercasting Prodigy.

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As far as the ability itself is concerned:

It's complicated. Very complicated. The exact way things are worded in this bloodline power (RAW) makes it complicated, and it likely violates the actual intention behind it (RAI), which is why some probably claim that it's not complicated -- but they are wrong. :D

The very example they give in the power is actually wrong and violates the RAW of the power:

Quote:

Starting at 9th level, whenever you gain a new level of spells...

For example, at 9th level, you would replace mind thrust I, id insinuation I, and ego whip I with mind thrust IV, id insinuation III, and ego whip II, respectively, as spells known.

Welp, sorcerers do not get a new level of spells at level 9, so this power wouldn't even be triggered at level 9. So, we see the given example itself is wrong according to RAW.

It's up to your GM at this point to decide whether to go with RAW or with RAI.

If your GM goes with RAI, then the power should read something like that:

Quote:

Whenever you gain a new level of sorcerer spells, replace each undercastable psychic bloodline bonus spell with the highest level version of that spell that you could cast.

Meant are those spells: Mind Thrust, Id Insinuation, Ego Whip, Intellect Fortress, Psychic Crush, Mental Barrier, Tower of Iron Will.

If your GM goes with RAW, then the power works like this:
Replace above mentioned spells in your Spells Known with the highest level version you can cast, regardless whether it's a bonus spell or a regular spell known, whenever you get a new level of spells [so usually at sorcerer levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18].

This makes the ability somewhat more useful, which I think is fine because the Psychic bloodline is somewhat weak, and using the 9th-level bloodline power to simply implement a standard feature of psychic spells is a huge slap in the face.

Additionally, the power can be enhanced with an Ampoule of False Blood and a Robe of Arcane Heritage worn during level-up:

If you are able to take a psychic spell in some other way, take Mental Barrier I (2nd-level spell) early on, and Undercasting Prodigy upgrades it every time you gain a new spell level, then replace it with another spell next level-up, e.g.:
Take Mental Barrier I at level 5, wear a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and the spell upgrades to Mental Barrier II at level 6; then replace this 3rd-level spell at level 7 for another 3rd-level spell, and learn Mental Barrier I again; it will be replaced with Mental Barrier III (4th-level spell) at level 8. Repeat until level 13 when you get it as a bonus spell. That way you can "upgrade" your spells known from low-level to high-level spells.

[vhok]

the undercasting ability itself gives you a new spell to replace the one that you replaced with the higher version. i don't remember the wording on it. but that might grant u more spells known to replace the ones u lose.

[Alran Dunline]

Thank you all for your answers.
What I understand now is that they are bloodline spells and do not count as spells known. So they would not get replaced only supplemented with the undercast versions of the spells. Thank you all for your input.

[vhok]

Some psychic spells can be undercast. This means that the spellcaster can cast the spell at the level that he knows, or as any lower-level version of that spell, using the appropriate spell slot. When a spellcaster undercasts a spell, it is treated exactly like the lower-level version, including when determining its effect, saving throw, and other variables. For example, a psychic spellcaster who adds ego whip III to his list of spells known can cast it as ego whip I, II, or III. If he casts it as ego whip I, it is treated in all ways as that spell; it uses the text and the saving throw DC for that spell, and requires him to expend a 3rd-level spell slot.

Whenever a spontaneous spellcaster adds a spell to his list of spells known that can be undercast, he can immediately learn a spell in place of each lower-level version of that spell he knows. In essence, he loses each earlier version and can replace it with another spell of the same level that is on his spell list.

had to go look for it