Blur and Mirror Image stacking

[mrspaghetti]

If a PC is under the effects of both Blur and Mirror Image, how would you handle it? Would it matter what order the spells were cast?

[thenobledrake]

The order cast doesn't matter.

Here's what appears to be the resolution process:
1) Opponent chooses you as a target, rolls the flat check against the concealment blur gives you.
2) If the flat check succeeded they roll their attack roll.
3) If their attack roll is high enough to hit you, roll the random chance to determine if one of your images is hit instead.
4) If an image was hit reduce your number of images; if you were hit resolve damage normally.

[shroudb]

does it really matter if you roll the concealment chance before or after the mirror image check?

I cant think a case where it matters at what point you roll the concealment chance since the order of application seems to be multiplicative at every step.

[Cordell Kintner]

It doesn't really, but if you fail the flat check none of the images pop, so might as well roll that first.

[shroudb]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

It doesn't really, but if you fail the flat check none of the images pop, so might as well roll that first.

well, if you fail the flat check, even if it was after the attack roll, it still shouldnt pop the image. no?

[breithauptclan]

shroudb wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

It doesn't really, but if you fail the flat check none of the images pop, so might as well roll that first.

well, if you fail the flat check, even if it was after the attack roll, it still shouldnt pop the image. no?

That is probably the most fair way of interpreting it. At that point, no, it wouldn't make a difference if you roll the chance of attacking an image before or after the miss chance from concealment.

An alternative way of rules reading would only apply the blur miss chance after successfully targeting you instead of one of the images. So roll the Mirror Image check first. If it fails, destroy an image. If it succeeds, then roll the concealment check from Blur.

But I don't think that is the correct way of applying both spell effects to the same character. The Mirror Image images should be under the effects of Blur too.

[Cordell Kintner]

shroudb wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

It doesn't really, but if you fail the flat check none of the images pop, so might as well roll that first.

well, if you fail the flat check, even if it was after the attack roll, it still shouldn't pop the image. no?

Yes, I just said that, but the intent was since the flat check is pass/fail just roll that first and if it's a fail you don't have to make the other two rolls. Why make rolls when they are rendered moot by a flat check anyway? In the end it's up to you how you want to roll.

[thenobledrake]

shroudb wrote:

does it really matter if you roll the concealment chance before or after the mirror image check?

Yes, because concealment affects targeting - if the flat check fails, that's the end of the resolution process for that attack; it has failed.

Where if you delay the concealment check until after you've rolled to hit and rolled to see if you hit an image or the genuine article, you've spent more time getting to the same outcome if the flat check fails. Plus, the rules established the order of steps for resolving an attack so why not follow them?

[mrspaghetti]

Thanks for the answers everyone.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

thenobledrake wrote:

Plus, the rules established the order of steps for resolving an attack so why not follow them?

This, the more you get into the habit of doing things right, the easier the rules become to follow accurately.

[Ravingdork]

thenobledrake wrote:

shroudb wrote:

does it really matter if you roll the concealment chance before or after the mirror image check?

Yes, because concealment affects targeting - if the flat check fails, that's the end of the resolution process for that attack; it has failed.

So does it fail in the general sense, as in nothing happens? Or does it fail in the game term sense, as in you use the Failure instruction for the attack in question?

For example, suppose a fighter missed their Strike due to concealment while using their Certain Strike fighter feat. What happens, precisely?

[Draco18s]

Quote:

When you target a creature that’s concealed from you,

you must attempt a DC 5 flat check before you roll to
determine your effect. If you fail, you don’t affect the
target.

Certain Strike does not bypass Concealment.

[Ravingdork]

Thanks, Draco18s.