Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Per the new Guide:
Downtime is spent in Downtime Units of up to 8 days at a time. If a character earns 8 days or fewer of downtime, it is spent in a single unit. If they earn more than 8 days, the character spends units of 8 days, one at a time, until 8 or fewer days remain, then spends the remaining days as a single unit.
Crafting tasks can be continued across as many Downtime days/units as necessary to complete the item.
What is the intent/purpose of allowing the same Crafting to continue beyond 8 days but not the same Earn Income?
I am specifically thinking of Field Agents, who typically has 12 days of Downtime after each scenario. Having to roll two separate Earn Income checks each Downtime, for two different timeframes, has in play come across as cumbersome and unnecessary. If crafters can continue with the same roll, why does a Pathfinder need to find a new job every week?
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I think there's two reasons why Crafting and Earned Income are treated differently
1) Crafting is bounded -- even if you get a crit, eventually you'll finish the project and need to roll again. Earned income is not. Once you get a crit if you could sit on it for ever, that would be odd. This explains, to me at least, why the crafting roll can carry over and Earned Income does not.
2) Crafting has start up time that already penalizes crit fishing. This isn't relevant to your question, but does add weight for why the two have different rules.
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Why can crafting continue but Earn Income has to roll every 8 days? Because while crafting has a fixed duration based on item value and success, the Core Rulebook says that when earning income “The GM determines how long you can work at the task.” That doesn’t work in an Organized Play environment; you don’t want wildly varying decisions. So there are two options for implementation.
1) Use a standardized block of time (what PFS has decided on) or
2) Allow the player to decide how long to work.
If we used 2) instead, we’d have another choice for implementation, both of which have potentially undesirable outcomes, and both of which would slow down end-of-game paperwork.
a) The player makes the roll then decides how long to work. As alluded to above this leads to “crit fishing” where players work 1 day at a time until they roll a critical success then use all their remaining time.
b) The player must announce ahead of time how long they are going to work. The problem here is with failures. If a PC earning income fails, they get a pittance for the full block they declared. Or nothing if they critically fail. So you might see people rolling in very small blocks to avoid big failures.
So why a standard block length? To avoid gumming up the works. Why 8 days? It’s arbitrary. But based on the fact that most PCs get 8 days of downtime after a standard scenario.
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Why can crafting continue but Earn Income has to roll every 8 days? Because while crafting has a fixed duration based on item value and success, the Core Rulebook says that when earning income “The GM determines how long you can work at the task.” That doesn’t work in an Organized Play environment; you don’t want wildly varying decisions. So there are two options for implementation.
1) Use a standardized block of time (what PFS has decided on) or
2) Allow the player to decide how long to work.If we used 2) instead, we’d have another choice for implementation, both of which have potentially undesirable outcomes, and both of which would slow down end-of-game paperwork.
a) The player makes the roll then decides how long to work. As alluded to above this leads to “crit fishing” where players work 1 day at a time until they roll a critical success then use all their remaining time.
b) The player must announce ahead of time how long they are going to work. The problem here is with failures. If a PC earning income fails, they get a pittance for the full block they declared. Or nothing if they critically fail. So you might see people rolling in very small blocks to avoid big failures.So why a standard block length? To avoid gumming up the works. Why 8 days? It’s arbitrary. But based on the fact that most PCs get 8 days of downtime after a standard scenario.
Don't forget. Supposedly it is 8 days if your character went through the Pathfinder Academy, but 12 days if they received a Field promotion to Pantfinder.
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So why a standard block length? To avoid gumming up the works. Why 8 days? It’s arbitrary. But based on the fact that most PCs get 8 days of downtime after a standard scenario.Don't forget. Supposedly it is 8 days if your character went through the Pathfinder Academy, but 12 days if they received a Field promotion to Pantfinder.
I didn’t.
...most PCs get 8 days of downtime...
The point I was making is that although the choice of 8 days is arbitrary, 8 is the number that would be “standard” for the largest number of PCs.
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So why a standard block length? To avoid gumming up the works. Why 8 days? It’s arbitrary. But based on the fact that most PCs get 8 days of downtime after a standard scenario.Don't forget. Supposedly it is 8 days if your character went through the Pathfinder Academy, but 12 days if they received a Field promotion to Pantfinder.I didn’t.
...most PCs get 8 days of downtime...The point I was making is that although the choice of 8 days is arbitrary, 8 is the number that would be “standard” for the largest number of PCs.
Actually, in our group at least, almost no one uses the "Academy" option. Almost everyone I have seen uses the Field Promotion.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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1) Crafting is bounded -- even if you get a crit, eventually you'll finish the project and need to roll again. Earned income is not. Once you get a crit if you could sit on it for ever, that would be odd. This explains, to me at least, why the crafting roll can carry over and Earned Income does not.
I would argue Earning Income is also bonded by the nature of Society Downtime: once the downtime period finishes, you are sent on another mission. It could easily be established that once your downtime period ends and you leave the job to do Pathfinder Society work, that specific task is not still waiting for you and you would need to begin a new Earn Income task.
The Core Rulebook says the duration a PC can work at a given Earn Income task is up to the GM, but OPF already has cases where they codify a specific timeframe where the core rules are more open ended (the core rules say the Gm will tell you how long retraining a class feature will take - the OP Guidelines confirm that in PFS that Retraining task takes exactly 28 days.
I suppose my proposal would be:
Earn Income: Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity. If you are using your Downtime for any other purposes, they must be completed first before you attempt your check to Earn Income. For each 8 day unit of Downtime you spend (including units where you complete multiple activities, such as spending 7 days retraining and then 1 day Earning Income), you attempt one check to Earn Income, using the result to calculate your total earnings for that block of Downtime. The Task Level of your Earn Income check is equal to your level – 2 (minimum 0) by default (GMs should check Table 10–5: DCs by Level on page 503 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook to calculate the DC), though some boons may allow you to attempt checks against higher-level tasks as a special reward. Once a player has spent 8 days at an Earn Income task, they may attempt a new Earn Income check or continue their current task and check for the remainder of the Downtime
This would minimize extra dice rolls for minimal gain and simplify the Earn Income process (since a lot of the recent changes have ostensibly been in the name of simplification of a lot of the Org Play fiddly bits)
Alternately, just say that (after doing anything else you're doing with Downtime) a PC can make up to a single Earn Income check, which continues for the remainder of their Downtime. (thus removing even the option of a Field-Commissioned re-roll)
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Something your missing about crafting is that you can choose to end the crafting and just pay the difference between how much was earned and how much is still owed.
I don't like your suggestion. Already too many changes. Earned Income is something we are use to doing and don't see the need to change it now.
Contributor
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Also...ya'know...you could just pick up Assurance and not have to worry about rolling Earn Income checks...Assurance is a Fortune Effect. You cannot use Fortune effects on Downtime.
You are absolutely allowed to rule that way when you GM, but Page 500-501 of the CRB gives GMs dispensation to disagree at their tables.
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Spoiled in an attempt to summarize and not overly derail, and it's kinda long.
Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can’t use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice.
Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.
As with other downtime activities, fortune and misfortune effects can’t modify your checks for the ritual, nor can bonuses or penalties that aren’t active throughout the process.
Page 500 disallows non constant effects. (GM's discretion for near constant effects)
Page 408 disallows all fortune effects in addition to modifiers of shorter duration than the downtime activity.
So to be used on downtime an effect must both be constant (or close enough) and not a fortune/misfortune effect.
Assurance is a fortune effect and therefore is not usable.
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The problem is page 408 is under Ritual Checks and is a strange place for rules that apply to all downtime checks.
The existence of these 2 paragraphs is problematic and there's a good argument that the disallowing of assurance is not intended, but the paragraphs aren't contradictory, just overlapping. Leaving me unable to come to any other conclusion than assurance is not allowed for downtime checks.
One can only hope that the promised CRB errata 2 from before the end times eventually sees the light of day, and that it touches this issue because I think assurance not applying is kinda dumb even if I think that's what the rules say.
That said page 500, like most PF2 rules say the GM can make any exception they want to what applies or doesn't.
So I think they're both right. Assurance doesn't work on Earn Income but GMs could rule differently if they felt like it.
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Contributor
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Hero Points are granted per session and are player- (not character-) activated, and are the other fortune effect I (and several GMs I correspond with) also allow during downtime. If a player has earned one and still has it available when downtime rolls happen, it feels petty (to me, at least) to disallow their use when the game session they won them in has not yet ended.
All this said, I'm right there with you in hoping that an errata clears some of the language in the CRB up on several things including this, even if that means the calls I make at my table now aren't what the designers originally intended.
I also won't even question a GM ruling different when I play, because of the exact argument you bring up, Rob. So again, I appreciate the spoiler!
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Why are you citing rules for Rituals in a downtime discussion? Page 408 says "As with other downtime activities..." which implies the rule should be present in the Downtime rules. So lets ignore that completely and go find the real rule.
If we go to the actual downtime rules on pages 500-501, we get that rule about fortune effects. The direct quote is:
Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can’t use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice. Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.
As we see, it is using an example of casting a spell to roll twice, not explicitly disallowing fortune effects. This would prevent Hero Points from being used, but since Assurance is constant, it would be able to be used. The restriction isn't on fortune effects, it's on how often the ability can be used. And Assurance can be used all the time. At the end of the paragraph is says:
If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.
So yes, you can use Assurance on downtime just fine.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Different sections of the CRB are written by different people, it's entirely possible they misinterpret something when referring to a rule written by another person. When looking up a rule about something you should look to the section explicitly about that subject, not other sections that are referencing that section. Currently, the rule in the Downtime section contradicts the rule in the Rituals section, so I'm inclined to go with the rule in the appropriate section, rather than the one in a different section that is only referencing it.
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I agree that Assurance can't be used for Downtime rolls because it is Fortune effect. If they errata the Fortune trait away, than problems solved.
But as a player, using Assurance to always get a success on Earn Income rolls smacks of gaming the system to get a larger benefit than intended.
Which may be the very reason why Assurance has the Fortune trait.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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I agree that Assurance can't be used for Downtime rolls because it is Fortune effect. If they errata the Fortune trait away, than problems solved.
But as a player, using Assurance to always get a success on Earn Income rolls smacks of gaming the system to get a larger benefit than intended.
Which may be the very reason why Assurance has the Fortune trait.
The problem with that is using assurance is only worth it if you do tasks under your level. With tasks at your level, assuming you immediately increase your proficiency in the skill as soon as possible, you can only successfully use assurance at levels 2 7 and 8. If you do tasks at your level -1, you would begin to fail at level 19, and yes, if you do tasks at your level -2 you would always succeed. I don't believe that's a massive amount of money since you will never crit succeed, and would usually be making money below your level. And at some point, your bonus would almost meet the DC for a task at your level anyway so using it would be pointless.
These numbers are for using Crafting to earn income, and includes item bonuses at appropriate levels.
Level⠀⠀Bonus⠀⠀Assurance⠀⠀⠀DC
1⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+7⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀13⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀15
2⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+10⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀16⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀16
3⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+12⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀17⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀18
4⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+13⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀18⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀19
5⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+14⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀19⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀20
6⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+15⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀20⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀22
7⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+18⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀23⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀23
8⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+19⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀24⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀24
9⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+20⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀25⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀26
10⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+22⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀26⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀27
11⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+24⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀27⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀28
12⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+25⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀28⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀30
13⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+26⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀29⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀31
14⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+27⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀30⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀32
15⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+30⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀33⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀34
16⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+31⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀34⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀35
17⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+33⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀35⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀36
18⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+34⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀36⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀38
19⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+35⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀37⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀39
20⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀+37⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀38⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀40
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Currently, the rule in the Downtime section contradicts the rule in the Rituals section. . .
There is no contradiction.
The rule on page 408 (Rituals) says “you can’t use fortune effects on downtime activities.” Nothing in the Downtime (page 500) rules states or even implies that you can use fortune effects on downtime. The only mention of “fortune” in the downtime rules is to explicitly state “you can’t use a fortune effect to roll twice.” Page 500 doesn’t outright ban all fortune effects, but it certainly doesn’t imply they are allowed.
Yes, I agree that the fortune statement belongs in the downtime section. But we can’t choose to ignore a specific rule just because there’s a possibility that maybe it was written by someone who didn’t write the general rule.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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There is no contradiction.
If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.
This rule contradicts the one in Rituals. As you said, the Downtime section doesn't ban fortune effects but does say you should be able to apply constant effects. You can use Assurance constantly as it doesn't take effort on your part. It reflects that you are good enough at a certain skill you can perform it quite well without even trying.
If one section is saying "You cant use things like a fortune spell to roll twice but you can still use constant effects" while the other section is "You can't use fortune effects at all" I would say that's a contradiction.
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Contributor
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Cordell, this is one of those situations where, because the rules are imprecise, we can't really force an argument one way or the other.
I tend to agree with you on Assurance. As such, based on the way the rules on 500-501 are written for GMs, we can rule that way at games we run for our players. In that same breath, I will not begrudge a GM who rules differently at their table, even (especially) if I'm playing at it.
We game in systems that work best when the language is clear, but so often in RPGs, clarity of language is difficult when so many people write and edit 500+ page books at the pace at which they claim they have to. When there is gray area, we just have to do the best we can, and agree that we're going to disagree on some things until clarifications are provided.
At my PF2 OPF tables, you can use Assurance and Hero Points during downtime. But this is definitely a situation where we have to "expect table variation" as it were. :)
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Contributor
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Wow, you point out explicit language that say fortune effects can't be used for downtime. Then you ignore it?
The language is clear. We may not like it but we have to abide by it when playing Society game.
Sorry Mike but VCs have to set the example and abide by the rules.
Guess I will put this into the FAQ discussion.
Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can’t use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice.
Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.
Emphasis mine, but that's from "Downtime" in the CRB, and is the only thing I've cited.
Assurance, as written, is a constant benefit in my opinion.
Hero points are, in my opinion (and that of several other GMs and VOs I've spoken to since 2e's launch), exceptions due to the nature of how they are awarded for a single OPF game session (which includes downtime in that game session).
As I've said, you are more than welcome to read it differently and rule differently at your table if you'd like, but I'd like to ask that you not accuse me or any other GMs of violating the rules when they explicitly state that GMs are allowed to make exceptions at their tables in the Core Rulebook.
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Disagree Mike. See my new comment. I deleted my other one because it was stronger than I intended.
Like I said. I will take this up to the FAQ task force so clarity can be provided. This is one area where table variance should not be happening because it effects the wealth curve.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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I think Cordell's point is that the restriction we *think* applies to *all* fortune effects *doesn't*.
The restriction on page 500 is "casting a fortune spell to roll twice".
The ritual section is referring to this restriction.
At least, that is how I'm interpreting what he's saying.
Yea that's exactly my theory. I say theory since I haven't asked the writers if it was intentional. This theory lies in the words "As with other downtime activities" which implies that it is stated elsewhere in the book, but it's not. No where else in the entire rule book does it mention that rule, yet the line explicitly implies that it is.
The two sections need to be errata'd to be in sync with one another, because at this point one is pointing at the other, claiming it says one thing while it says another.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm not really convinced by the Rituals section. It's an abbreviated reminder that points to an original rule, but incompletely.
The complete rule says that short-term fortune effects can't be used on downtime activities because they don't last for the whole activity. It doesn't say no fortune effects ever could apply, because it admits some of them might last long enough. Assurance certainly lasts long enough.
Now, I can see why Assurance on rituals might be an undesirable thing - rituals are supposed to be a bit risky. Then again, if we look at the DCs for rituals, we see the following formula:
Primary check: usually Very Hard (+5) DC for twice the ritual's level. So say, a level 3 ritual would use the level 6 DC (22) +5 = 27.
Secondary check: usually a standard DC for twice the ritual's level. So that would be 22 in this example.
So when could you actually do this with assurance?
Primary: at Expert, you could do it at level 27 - (4 + 10) = 13; if you're Master it would be at level 11. That's for a level 3 ritual. Clearly, Assurance isn't useful for primary casters.
Secondary: at Expert, you could do it at 22 - (4 + 10) = 8. With Master you could do it at level 7. So that's somewhat doable - you can be the reliable assistant for rituals that are just a bit below your level.
The below your level part is important. Ritual levels and spell levels are more or less on the same scale, but Assurance only lets you reliably assist in rituals that are a level below what a spellcaster of your level could pull off. But any ritual of lower level is starting to get into the kind of routine housekeeping territory.
Conclusion: Assurance is probably not the type of Fortune effect that the designers were really worried about when reminding you that you can't use a Fortune effect on a ritual. Much more likely is that they were thinking about hero points.
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It was mentioned that using Assurance on Earn Income is similar to or is gaming the system. That was curious to me. What about...
...using Assurance on Arcana for wizards to auto-succeed on Learn a Spell? Is this gaming the sytem?
...using Assurance on Medicine to auto-succeed on battle medicine in the middle of combat? Is this gaming the system?
...using Assurance on Athletics to ignore the MAP penalty your character is at and likely succeeed at a combat maneuver with your 3rd action? Is this gaming the system?
It seems to me that either all of these are examples of Assurance gaming the system, OR it is situations in which Assurance is actually being useful because it is only useful in rare specific situation.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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It was mentioned that using Assurance on Earn Income is similar to or is gaming the system. That was curious to me. What about...
...using Assurance on Arcana for wizards to auto-succeed on Learn a Spell? Is this gaming the sytem?
...using Assurance on Medicine to auto-succeed on battle medicine in the middle of combat? Is this gaming the system?
...using Assurance on Athletics to ignore the MAP penalty your character is at and likely succeeed at a combat maneuver with your 3rd action? Is this gaming the system?
It seems to me that either all of these are examples of Assurance gaming the system, OR it is situations in which Assurance is actually being useful because it is only useful in rare specific situation.
And further in that vein, my math post above shows it's not even that worth it to use Assurance on Earn Income. But this thread has evolved to not whether or not it's worth it, but if it's even possible in the rules.
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But life is a risk. We can do our jobs perfectly everyday for 99 days. But on the 100th day, can do something that is total failure.
Yes, crit failing sucks. But it is part of life, both in real life and character life.
Knowing that a character can always get a success on earn income just feels wrong to me.
I don't believe the designers intended Assurance to be usable during downtime. That is why it is a fortune effect.