Reposting Gisher latest table here. Look at the table Best Attack Bonus
So as I read it the Summoner is 2 behind the wizard in spell attacks for level 7-10 and 15+. Looks good. Similarily for Spell DCs. Obviously assuming you prioritise Charisma.
The Eidolon will come in the line, Gisher has listed as "Rogue Weapon Secondary" given it starts with a 16 and doesn't get an Apex item.
Does everyone agree?
Summoners have a fine setup for offensive casting, but is that essential to the concept of summoner?
For me I think of the summoner I think of them as casting buff spells which are less dependent on spell slot. Also casting summon spells, but I don't think that should use spell slots, and doesn't really go with the eidolon using summoner.
I think more essential is the eidolon being a cool monster, so sacrificing some of the summoners offensive casting capabilities for that seems worth it. I'd really like the eidolon to start with 18 str instead of the summoner starting with 18 cha.
What would people like to see the summoner eidolon pair doing in combat? I think I'd be fine with the summoner doing literally nothing at all, but fighting mounted on the eidolon seems cool too (hope that's a minor build instead of mandatory though).
Personally I think the synthesist is much more worth having than the summoner.
That's nice that it seems good to you
Summoners have a fine setup for offensive casting, but is that essential to the concept of summoner?
For me I think of the summoner I think of them as casting buff spells which are less dependent on spell slot. Also casting summon spells, but I don't think that should use spell slots, and doesn't really go with the eidolon using summoner.
I think more essential is the eidolon being a cool monster, so sacrificing some of the summoners offensive casting capabilities for that seems worth it. I'd really like the eidolon to start with 18 str instead of the summoner starting with 18 cha.
What would people like to see the summoner eidolon pair doing in combat? I think I'd be fine with the summoner doing literally nothing at all, but fighting mounted on the eidolon seems cool too (hope that's a minor build instead of mandatory though).
Personally I think the synthesist is much more worth having than the summoner.
I like the idea that my Summoner is sitting back and providing support to the Eidolon - I honestly don't mind the 'magic channeling' thing that Boost Eidolon or Reinforce Eidolon kindof represents, I just wish you could do just a bit more with it.
A feat or three that added options to these I think would make them more fun. Example -
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Elemental Attunement - Summoner X
When you take this feat, choose Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, Positive or Negative. If you are Good, Evil, Chaotic, or Lawful you may choose one of those.
When you cast Boost Eidolon, you may choose to have the damage added by this feat be of the type you chose.
When you cast Reinforce Eidolon, instead of gaining Resistance to all damage, you may choose to have your Eidolon gain resistance equal to your level to the type you chose. If you chose Good, Evil, Chaotic, or Lawful the resistance is to the opposed type instead.
Special - You may take this feat multiple times, and choose a different damage type each time. You must choose which to apply each time you cast Reinforce Eidolon or Boost Eidolon.
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I agree that feats to support a more aggressive 'tandem fighting' option would also be sweet for some people, and it wouldn't take more than few to make it fun and viable if the Summoner took combat support from archetypes.
On the topic of math, I'm fine with the Spellcasting. Its nice when you're on track with other Spellcasters and have a full range of options, but even when you aren't, its not like all the spell lists don't have options that aren't contingent on attack rolls or saves.
Even when you're behind, several of the spell lists have offensive options that are potent even on a Successful Save that are worth keeping even with reduced effectiveness... I'm talking about options like Synesthesia, which will ruin anyones day on anything but a Critical Success.
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Admittedly in the sims I'm about to run (Party of 4 Archetype'd Summoners playing different party roles through Level 8 PFS scenarios) a lot of the DPS options I plan to use that are spell-based is just Wand of Manifold Missiles (1A cast as part of Act Together round 1, consistent DPS increase for every turn after that for free). Aside from that I'll likely be spending most of my spells either doing out-of-combat utility or casting Haste. As people have mentioned elsewhere, Summoner focusing Spells shouldn't be as good as a primary Caster and I agree with that, they still get the exact same utility options as the average caster (just less per day) and I don't think they should cast as good as any primary spellcaster while the Eidolon exists; as long as they fix Action economy to make your Eidolon be able to act when you cast a Summon or able to breathe fire the same turn you cast Haste, I think we'd be in a good spot. (Especially since Druids can already do that sort of turn with their Animal Companions.)
Summoners have a fine setup for offensive casting, but is that essential to the concept of summoner?
For me I think of the summoner I think of them as casting buff spells which are less dependent on spell slot. Also casting summon spells, but I don't think that should use spell slots, and doesn't really go with the eidolon using summoner.
I think more essential is the eidolon being a cool monster, so sacrificing some of the summoners offensive casting capabilities for that seems worth it. I'd really like the eidolon to start with 18 str instead of the summoner starting with 18 cha.
Would a buff/maybe summon focused caster care if their spell casting proficiency was lower? I think that i wouldn't mind an expert only caster if I could get higher proficiencies on the eidolon (or to fake that with higher general stats).
Would a buff/maybe summon focused caster care if their spell casting proficiency was lower? I think that i wouldn't mind an expert only caster if I could get higher proficiencies on the eidolon (or to fake that with higher general stats).
There's not really anywhere to go with Eidolons and better proficiencies though. There's no way they're getting Fighter level proficiency on attack, or more than temporary Monk/Champion level proficiency on AC.
Opinion -
There's no real need to trade anything for an adjustment to their currently falling behind at certain levels on attack bonus - that should probably just be fixed as is, by adjusting their current numbers upwards to bring them in line with Martial Accuracy.
I'm almost certainly going to be arguing for Eidolon accuracy losing its 'dead zones' it currently has at level 1-4 and 10-14, and at 17 and 20 due to Apex items and attribute lag - and I don't think we need to give up a thing to justify it.
Summoners are held back enough by having a second tier damage 'fixer' (Boost Eidolon vs. Sneak attack, Rage, etc.) that we don't also need to have lesser accuracy.
The only fix needed for AC is moving Expert Unarmored to level 1.
I don't think that trading Spellcasting will get us better than that in any possible case.