I'm a bit unsure about Hymn of Healing's duration via subsequent sustains, and I'm hoping someone can clarify it for me.
Hymn of Healing can be sustained up to 4 rounds. So does this mean you cast it round one and can sustain on turns 2,3,4 and 5 (i.e. four sustains), or does the initial round of casting count towards the duration (cast round 1, sustain 2,3,4, expires)?
Core Rulebook p. 304, Durations wrote: If a spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0. Same page, Sustaining Spells wrote: If the spell’s duration is “sustained,” it lasts until the end of your next turn unless you use a Sustain a Spell action on that turn to extend the duration of that spell. Combining these two rules with specific overrides general in mind, you cast the spell on round 1, and you can sustain the spell on round 2 (duration ticks down to 3), round 3 (duration down to 2), round 4 (duration down to 1), and round 5 (duration down to 0 - but sustain overrides that the spell would actually end at the start of your turn and gives you the chance to sustain it) - then at the start of your turn in Round 6 the spell has officially ended (which I mention just in case your target's initiative changes in such a way that instead of going before you and getting that last fast healing tick, they now go after you so the spell ends before their turn comes back around).
thenobledrake wrote: Core Rulebook p. 304, Durations wrote: If a spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0. Same page, Sustaining Spells wrote: If the spell’s duration is “sustained,” it lasts until the end of your next turn unless you use a Sustain a Spell action on that turn to extend the duration of that spell. Combining these two rules with specific overrides general in mind, you cast the spell on round 1, and you can sustain the spell on round 2 (duration ticks down to 3), round 3 (duration down to 2), round 4 (duration down to 1), and round 5 (duration down to 0 - but sustain overrides that the spell would actually end at the start of your turn and gives you the chance to sustain it) - then at the start of your turn in Round 6 the spell has officially ended (which I mention just in case your target's initiative changes in such a way that instead of going before you and getting that last fast healing tick, they now go after you so the spell ends before their turn comes back around). slightly differently:
It doesnt end at the start of your round 6, it ends at the end of your round 5.
Since as you pointed out it ends at the end of the next turn since you sustained it (or simpler put at the end of the turn that you dont sustain it.)
shroudb wrote: Since as you pointed out it ends at the end of the turn that you dont sustain it. The spell can be sustained 4 times, that's why it ends at the start of the caster's turn in round 6 like I said. Because it can be sustained in round 5, as that is the 4th of the "sustained up to 4 rounds"
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thenobledrake wrote: shroudb wrote: Since as you pointed out it ends at the end of the turn that you dont sustain it. The spell can be sustained 4 times, that's why it ends at the start of the caster's turn in round 6 like I said. Because it can be sustained in round 5, as that is the 4th of the "sustained up to 4 rounds" The spell can be sustained for 4 rounds, not for 4 times. The first time you get to sustain it, it's already round 2.
"sustained for 4 rounds = at the end of the 5th round it ends"
Even if you count it as you can sustain it 4 times, then it's the END of round 6, not the start of round 6. Sustained spells end on the end of the round as written.
So under this scenario:
Fabulous Handsome Bard: init 20
Big Dumb Fighter: init 1
If FHB uses Hymn of Healing on Turn one and sustains as long as possible, BDF would get (assuming level 1 Bard and a sustain by the bard every round):
Round 1: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
(sustain ends at the end of round five)
Is that correct?
If BDF was HIGHER in the initiative order than FHB, however, he'd get this instead:
Round 1: 0 HP (BDF's turn has passed already so no fast healing trigger) + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
Is that also correct?
Thanks!
Visandus wrote: So under this scenario:
Fabulous Handsome Bard: init 20
Big Dumb Fighter: init 1
If FHB uses Hymn of Healing on Turn one and sustains as long as possible, BDF would get (assuming level 1 Bard and a sustain by the bard every round):
Round 1: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
(sustain ends at the end of round five)
Is that correct?
If BDF was HIGHER in the initiative order than FHB, however, he'd get this instead:
Round 1: 0 HP (BDF's turn has passed already so no fast healing trigger) + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
Is that also correct?
Thanks!
it'll tick 4 times on him regardless his initiative compared to you:
In the first case, his 5th round will be before your 5th round, but also his 1st round will be before you cast the spell, in the second case his 1st round will be after your 1st round (when you cast your spell) but his 5th round will be after your 5th round (when your spell will have ended)
shroudb wrote: Visandus wrote: So under this scenario:
Fabulous Handsome Bard: init 20
Big Dumb Fighter: init 1
If FHB uses Hymn of Healing on Turn one and sustains as long as possible, BDF would get (assuming level 1 Bard and a sustain by the bard every round):
Round 1: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
(sustain ends at the end of round five)
Is that correct?
If BDF was HIGHER in the initiative order than FHB, however, he'd get this instead:
Round 1: 0 HP (BDF's turn has passed already so no fast healing trigger) + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP
Is that also correct?
Thanks!
it'll tick 4 times on him regardless his initiative compared to you:
In the first case, his 5th round will be before your 5th round, but also his 1st round will be before you cast the spell, in the second case his 1st round will be after your 1st round (when you cast your spell) but his 5th round will be after your 5th round (when your spell will have ended) So, just to be clear, it only heals 8 hp total across all the ticks combined either way at level 1?
and gives 8 temporary HP, yes
shroudb wrote: and gives 8 temporary HP, yes I didn't include that, since it doesn't stack (they only last 2 round). They are highly useful, since you get a new set every round with the sustain, but it can vary on how much of them you use up, especially when you start throwing sets of 20's around at the highest levels.
Appreciate the clarification everyone has offered! I assumed that was the case (because of comparisons with the Witch's Life Boost), but I wasn't sure so wanted to check. :)
Visandus wrote: Appreciate the clarification everyone has offered! I assumed that was the case (because of comparisons with the Witch's Life Boost), but I wasn't sure so wanted to check. :) yeah, they are suppossed to be about equal. They heal the same, but witch doesnt require sustain while bard gives the additional Temp HPs
shroudb wrote: The spell can be sustained for 4 rounds, not for 4 times. The first time you get to sustain it, it's already round 2.
"sustained for 4 rounds = at the end of the 5th round it ends"
Even if you count it as you can sustain it 4 times, then it's the END of round 6, not the start of round 6. Sustained spells end on the end of the round as written.
You are right that it ends at the end of your turn rather than the beginning, I flubbed that.
As for why I was saying you can sustain it 4 times, here's a round-by-round:
round 1 - cast
round 2 - duration ticks down to 3, sustain the spell
round 3 - duration ticks down to 2, sustain the spell
round 4 - duration ticks down to 1, sustain the spell
round 5 - duration ticks down to 0, but the spell doesn't end until the end of your turn because it's a sustained spell... and I was thinking that you could still use Sustain a Spell then, but I realize now that can't be true because the conditions are the same as they would be any round after this one.
So the "Requirements You have at least one spell active with a sustained duration, and you are not fatigued." part of Sustain a Spell must be meaning that the duration remaining is at 1+ when it says "active"
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