Visandus's page

I feel like 2e needs to support or give the ability for players to do harmless magical tricks for the sake of roleplay.

I second this. Roleplay enabling spells would be a wonderful thing to fill out more.

My personal wishlist item is a low level spell that allows a bard to summon an illusionary orchestra to accompany them, so they can perform more complicated songs.

As it stands, you need to be quite high level to do that. Would be lovely for a low level bard to pull off that sort of thing.

This is FANTASTIC! Aligning the base rules for PF/SF is an incredible step... and one I've been hoping for for a while now, but never did I think it would happen!

OUT. STANDING.

Yes.

Great - thanks!

The Psi Development feat (level 6) for the Psychic dedication allows you to pick an additional psi cantrip: either the other cantrip you didn't initially take from your conscious mind, or the unique surface cantrip.

As near as I can tell, that means if you want to pick the unique surface cantrip, you can never learn the other cantrip that falls under your conscious mind, as there's no other feat that grants it and Psi Development isn't a feat you can take more than once.

Is that correct?

Now, to be honest, to TPK 5e players have to play very recklessly. To get to the point where no one in the round heals a fallen player, or an event occurs that kills all players at the same time.

I think this is largely accurate based on my experiences. I have not experienced a single TPK in any game of 5e I have played in or ran. In fact, I've never even seen a character death in games I've participated in.

My wife has played in one game where she saw a TPK, but it was literally the first game session in a homebrew game and the DM put them up against something like a 4th level Bugbear (who also had a bunch of gobbo friends), which (predictably) wiped the floor with the entire party, one-shotting players left and right. That one was just a pure DM flub - the encounter was far, far beyond a group of 1st level PCs.

With a competent party and DM, I think TPKs will be few and far between with most groups, especially if you exclude outliers caused by PCs involved in encounters they have no place being near.

That said, I've yet to see a TPK in PF2e either, although there have been some VERY close calls. Most notably was Extinction Curse with the flipping lion encounter...ouch. We were down to 1 PC, the wizard, with 3 hp left when the last enemy was downed. We legitimately thought we were going to see a TPK and the cheers when we somehow pulled it off were something else.

I'm playing in a 5e game right now, but only because I wanted to support a friend's game. We're closing in on the end of the campaign now and he is switching to PF2e for his next campaign, having been exposed to it through the game I'm running.

I am really excited to be done with 5e. I don't find it remotely interesting, and the myriad flaws frustrate me immensely. Once this campaign is done I doubt I'll ever touch it again.

That was my reading too, but it was ambiguous so thought I'd check. Thanks!

This background reads thus:

"Some event, be it an accident, attack, or disaster, has left you horribly scarred by magic. Your body no longer tolerates magical healing, and you can't use magic, forcing you to rely on gadgets and ingenuity where others trust in spells and magical items. You might have been well-versed in magic before, or barely familiar with its use. This event may have injured your body in visible ways, but no matter the extent of your injuries, your body no longer interacts with healing magic in any capacity.

Choose two ability boosts. One must be to Constitution or Intelligence, and one is a free ability boost.

You're trained in the Crafting skill and the Medicine skill. You gain the Battle Medicine skill feat, and a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against spells. Healing spells, healing magic items, and magical effects with the healing trait have no effect on you."

The flavour text specifically says "and you can't use magic", but the rules text below only details blocks on magical healing spells, items and magical effects with the healing trait.

So on that basis, does this background stop a player who has spell slots from casting spells? Is the flavour text just clumsily worded and intended to be referring to healing, or is the intent to not allow the player to cast any spells at all?

I realised the other day that I had just assumed you roll damage on a per-target basis for a spell like Fireball, but I had never actually confirmed that in the rules one way or another.

Now that I'm looking, I have failed to locate any rules relevant to AOE damage rolls.

Can anyone clear up for me whether you roll a Fireball's damage once, and apply that same damage to all targets, or whether you roll damage on a per-target basis?

Spoken to a number of other GMs about this and it seems there is a roughly 50/50 split among the people I know, and none of them could point at anything RAW either!

Thanks!

It is hard to make a terrible party comp. You can make a less optimal party comp, but that is different. They will still be successful, they will just have more setbacks and missed opportunities.

Yeah, a Rogue is nice because of the high number of skills with higher proficiency. But it is certainly not a requirement. Probably best to make sure that a character or two are trained in Religion and Occultism. Other than that, it is a matter of how the players want to approach various problems that are presented to them.

Lovely - thanks!

I don't mind them being suboptimal, I just want them to avoid being useless (e.g. Hallowed Necromancer with no undead) or unable to proceed in a sensible fashion (e.g. Baldur's Gate 1 Durlag's Tower with no Thief).

Thanks - the player will be happy to hear that her concept is more than viable.

Unrelated to the title but on a similar note, how necessary is a rogue given this is a traditional dungeon crawl type adventure? In prior editions you obviously couldn't leave home without one, but with the game changes is a skill feat based character borderline essential (excluding Medicine) or can the group work without one?

I assume it's the latter, but I just want to be sure before my players all inevitably fall in love with a terrible party comp. :D

There are undead. Not just undead, but there are definitely undead.

So definitely not a dead archetype pick then?

Hoping someone who has run the AP can provide me some basic info on it.

I just got my book so I haven't been able to fully read it yet, but one of my players really likes the Hallowed Necromancer from Book of the Dead and wants to know if it is a viable archetype in AV.

If they ran with that archetype, are they going to be punished due to a general lack of undead, or will it potentially be a rewarding choice?

I've been trying to work out if an Investigator with a Gunslinger dedication is workable.

It seems there are some nice potential synergies, since Devise a Stratagem allows you to not fire (and thus need to reload) if you're wasting a shot.

If you go Way of the Pistolero and build a Charisma investigator, at level 10 the Slinger's Reload allows you to Demoralize when you reload, which would allow for this kind of turn:

> DAS (and Recall Knowledge with the Know Weaknesses feat)
> Strike
> Reload and Demoralize

Has anyone tried an Investigator with Gunslinger dedication? If so, how did you find it?

This is a free archetype game, which should make things easier.

You can also learn a cantrip from a Cleric, Bard, Druid, Wizard, spellbook, grimoire, or other plot-specific non-listed magical written forms of the cantrips that the GM gives you. By using that first part - creating a 'personal notes' written version of the spell that acts like a scroll for purposes of giving it to your familiar (but you couldn't cast the cantrip from your notes - it isn't actually a scroll with a cantrip on it).

Great - thanks!

Consuming scrolls is not the only way a witch's familiar learns new spells, but it is the easiest:

APG 94:

You can use the Learn a Spell exploration activity to prepare a special written version of a spell, which your familiar can consume as if it were a scroll. You and your familiar can use the Learn a Spell activity to teach your familiar a spell from another witch's familiar. Both familiars must be present for the entirety of the activity, the spell must be on your spellcasting tradition's spell list, and you must pay the usual cost for that activity, typically in the form of an offering to the other familiar's patron. You can't prepare spells from another witch's familiar.

Aha! So you just need to find (and convince) another Witch. I completely missed that - thanks!

If you have a Witch Dedication, your familiar knows two cantrips, and you get to prepare one.

If you then take Cantrip Expansion, you can prepare up to three cantrips, but you only know two. Since cantrips don't come on scrolls and familiars learn spells by eating the scrolls, your familiar can't learn any new cantrips which means you can prepare more cantrips than you ever know.

This is exacerbated if you want to take the Cantrip Connection familiar ability, since that would mean can prepare four cantrips but only know two.

Is there a rule which covers situations where you can prepare more cantrips than you know? The Basic spellcasting feats all mention that you learn new spells when you obtain a new spell slot, but the cantrip based abilities don't have that text.

Am I missing something, or can you just not take Cantrip Expansion with a Witch Dedication? Is there an alternative route to the familiar learning more cantrips?

Appreciate the feedback so far.

On a slightly related note, I am deliberating between Alchemical Sciences and Forensic Medicine.

When looking at the list of elixirs and tools, they seem phenomenally underwhelming for the most part. Most of them do little, and the mutagens generally come with nasty downsides.

Is Forensic Medicine generally the better pick, or am I drastically underestimating the elixirs/tools Investigators get access to?

The thing to do is pick areas not covered [or covered well] by your other skills. For instance, don't have religion? [or have a low wisdom] Pick up undead and/or fiends. If it turns our you find yourself not running into enough to make you happy, retrain into a different kind.

You can also look at the players guide for the AP as it often has suggestions for lore and/or just ask the DM if a lore would be useful.

True, retraining is always an option. :)

My main concern with taking Additional Lore is the picks are so specific that you almost need to know what's coming up in the campaign to avoid wasting the investment. For example, if you took Lore: Fiends and there are not fiends, it's a bit of a waste...

What are your ability scores, and what do you know about the campaign you are playing in?

Currently leaning:

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 18
WIS 12
CHA 10

Though I may shuffle those around a bit depending on which skill feats people highlight.

Campaign is probably going to be Agents of Edgewatch but the DM isn't 100% on that yet (assume Agents for now).

I'm going to be playing an investigator soon, and I'm trying to plan out which skill feats to pick up; this is my first time playing a heavy skill based class in PF2, so the number of choices is a bit overwhelming!

I'm going to be running with a Alchemical Sciences or Forensic Medicine ranged (shortbow) investigator. I am currently planning on picking up Arcane Sense and Streetwise, since I think those will be handy additions to my toolkit. The former gives me a reliable way of finding magical influences, and the latter allows me to use society in place of Diplomacy for Gather Information, which seems thematically appropriate.

Any other suggestions those who have played the class can make?

I think for an actual orchestra you'd need to use Illusory Scene, since it explicitly includes up to 10 discrete creatures or objects while Illusory Object does not.

With Illusory Object, you'd have to create some kind of imaginary composite instrument that plays itself to get an orchestra-like sound. At least, that's how I interpret it.

Good catch on Illusory Scene! Thanks!

Since Illusory Object at 2nd level includes sound, and you could fit a compact-ish orchestra into a 20 foot square, would it be fair to allow a Bard to summon up an illusory orchestra to accompany them on a performance requiring more instrument noises than the one they are playing could produce?

From reading the spell description I can't see any obvious wording that would rule this out, so I'd be inclined to allow it (not the least because it's cool for the Bardic performance aspect), but wanted to get the thoughts of others.

EDIT: obviously the orchestra couldn't move from their position, but they could animate naturally per the spell description.

shroudb wrote:

how is retrieveing a drum from your hip faster than drawing a blade from its sheath?

You wouldn't "retrieve" it. You'd literally start hitting it in place as-is. The drum doesn't move.

Should probably add some context here, I suppose.

If you're playing a bard, the fact you can use an instrument in place of somatic and material components is really nice and wonderful for class flavour.

The "frustrating" part of it is that if you're e.g. ambushed and have no instrument in your hand, you have to spend an action to pull one out before you can cast somatic or material spells with it. This means you're better off just having a component pouch, because you can handle those unexpected situations at full efficiency without loss of actions.

The unfortunate situation right now is that if you want to be as flavorful as possible, you need to hedge against not having an instrument in hand.

It would have been nice if Summon Instrument was a free action to account for this, but that ship has sailed. It's not a big deal, but it would be nice to have reliable casting through instruments without explicitly carrying an instrument at all times. :)

how is retrieveing a drum from your hip faster than drawing a blade from its sheath?

You wouldn't "retrieve" it. You'd literally start hitting it in place as-is. The drum doesn't move.

Does anyone happen to know if there is any support in the rules for wearing a musical instrument?

For example, mounting a drum to a belt, or wearing an accordion around your neck?

As near as I can tell, the rules require an action to get an instrument out, but it seems to me that some instruments are potentially very easy to secure on the person without requiring actions to access them. It doesn't seem like a small drum on the hip would need an action to retrieve, for example.

Appreciate the clarification everyone has offered! I assumed that was the case (because of comparisons with the Witch's Life Boost), but I wasn't sure so wanted to check. :)

So under this scenario:

Fabulous Handsome Bard: init 20
Big Dumb Fighter: init 1

If FHB uses Hymn of Healing on Turn one and sustains as long as possible, BDF would get (assuming level 1 Bard and a sustain by the bard every round):

Round 1: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP

(sustain ends at the end of round five)

Is that correct?

If BDF was HIGHER in the initiative order than FHB, however, he'd get this instead:

Round 1: 0 HP (BDF's turn has passed already so no fast healing trigger) + 2 THP
Round 2: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 3: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 4: 2 HP + 2 THP
Round 5: 2 HP + 2 THP

Is that also correct?

Thanks!

I'm a bit unsure about Hymn of Healing's duration via subsequent sustains, and I'm hoping someone can clarify it for me.

Hymn of Healing can be sustained up to 4 rounds. So does this mean you cast it round one and can sustain on turns 2,3,4 and 5 (i.e. four sustains), or does the initial round of casting count towards the duration (cast round 1, sustain 2,3,4, expires)?

The saddest thing about this build is that you can't have an object familiar and access to the divine spell list at the same time, and thus cannot have the Holy Hand Grenade as your familiar.

Holy Water vial familiar!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=245

1, 2, 5!

Thanks for all the additional thoughts. Lots to work through here. :)

As far as Cleric domains go: any domains/domain focus spells that are particularly interesting in practice? On paper, Sarenrae looks like a pretty interesting pick, giving some reasonable healing focus options (Healing, Sun) and some bonus fire damage spells that come from the arcane list, along with a focus damage spell (Fire). Seems like a pretty good pick for a Cloistered Cleric, but that's based off zero play experience.

Appreciate all of the insights, everyone! The "Counteract" point especially was something I wasn't aware of, and seems well worth bearing in mind.

What is it about spellcasters that makes them more viable at level 7ish? From many of the above comments it seems like so many of the casters are have an uphill struggle until then. Are the low level spells that underwhelming in play?

Appreciate the info so far, everyone! 2e is so different to 1e that it's hard to get a good sense of the changes without having played, so this is all great.

Hello all,

I will soon be taking part in my first 2e game and I wanted to get some feedback from seasoned players over the relative differences between various classes. It's difficult to get a real sense of how things properly fit together without having played. I'm not 100% sure what the other players are making yet (session 0 is upcoming) so I want to make sure I have a decent understanding of the lay of the land before we work out the specifics of our party. I suspect I'll end up in a support (buff or debuff), controller or healing style of role.

I therefore have a few questions:

1. What are the play differences of the Bard, Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric healing styles?
2. Which class is most suited to a Controller/Healing playstyle?
3. Which class is most suited to a Support/Buff/Healing playstyle?
4. Which class is most suited to a Debuff/Healing playstyle?
5. Which healing style class do you find most fun (subjective question, obviously) and why do you enjoy it?
6. What's are some of the more effective ways to build a controller/support based Wizard?

Appreciate any insights here, it's hard to get a good "feel" for things when you haven't yet played in a game. :)