Nightstick / Tonfa

[profounddark]

Should the Nightstick have the monk trait? The fact that it has the Parry trait coupled with the picture really suggests that this is supposed to be a tonfa (or a "side-handle baton"). It just seems a weird oversight, especially when you consider that the 1E tonfa was a monk weapon.

[Riobux]

I don't think should is the word I'd use, but it'd definitely be understandable if they did have it since nightsticks are based on tonfas. The fact they don't, well, I can live with that. Then again, my experience with playing a monk was pre-Advanced Players Guide so fists were the way to go.

Horrible tangent about weapon vs unarmed balance:

Then again, monastic weapon monks seem to be in a bizarre position power wise. You can pick the Temple Sword's 1d8, or you can be behind the curve compared to fighting stances (which out of 13, 5 do a d6 or less, and all but one of those are because they do poison, fire, negative or do ranged attacks).

You could make the case your build just isn't in the fighting stance direction, but then you're still spending a level 1 feat to allow you to use the Nightstick to flurry-of-blows and all that. So, why spend a level 1 for a monastic weapon versus all the other really delicious and wonderful unarmed attack stances you also only need to spend one feat for? Flavour is totally nice, and I'd be half tempted to consider a nightstick a monk weapon because that's how the player wants to play their character (and it is a 1d4 weapon), but I'd also be tempted to just mention this power oddity with a "are you sure?". If they are sure and that's how they want to build their character, then that's sincerely fantastic.

[Taja the Barbarian]

This weapon is actually less of a tonfa / traditional nightstick and more of a 'collapsible baton'.

Nightstick wrote:

Source Pathfinder #157: Devil at the Dreaming Palace pg. 78

Price 1 gp; Damage 1d4 B; Bulk L
Hands 1
Category Simple
Group Club; Traits Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Parry, Uncommon

This collapsible baton consists of several nested, telescoping metal shafts that can be extended as a free action by flicking the wrist. Once extended to its full length (usually around 2 feet), the baton locks into shape until the wielder uses an Interact action to collapse it—a collapsed nightstick is 8 inches long, making it easily concealed. Lighter and more maneuverable than an ordinary club or truncheon, nightsticks are designed to subdue foes without causing permanent injury. A nightstick is an uncommon simple melee weapon.

[profounddark]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

This weapon is actually less of a tonfa / traditional nightstick and more of a 'collapsible baton'.

Nightstick wrote:

Source Pathfinder #157: Devil at the Dreaming Palace pg. 78

Price 1 gp; Damage 1d4 B; Bulk L
Hands 1
Category Simple
Group Club; Traits Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Parry, Uncommon

This collapsible baton consists of several nested, telescoping metal shafts that can be extended as a free action by flicking the wrist. Once extended to its full length (usually around 2 feet), the baton locks into shape until the wielder uses an Interact action to collapse it—a collapsed nightstick is 8 inches long, making it easily concealed. Lighter and more maneuverable than an ordinary club or truncheon, nightsticks are designed to subdue foes without causing permanent injury. A nightstick is an uncommon simple melee weapon.

It's collapsible, but I don't think that changes it's function as a tonfa. I mean, if you've ever seen somebody who's properly trained with a side-handle nightstick, it look an awful lot like Okinawan tonfa style. And this includes the expandable/collapsible models. The collapsible part is on the long end, which in the natural (Honte Mochi) grip protects the forearm. I assume that's why they gave the weapon the Parry trait, as that's the typical way to wield the weapon.

If you're interested in context, I'd recommend searching for the Monadnock Expandable PR-24 (although realize you're going to get links to a bunch of police supply companies).

[Riobux]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

This weapon is actually less of a tonfa / traditional nightstick and more of a 'collapsible baton'.

I mean, it is in the sense the arm part is collapsible, but you're still not wielding it like a baton (i.e. holding the handle and striking like a club). The picture in the book depicts it like a nightstick, both when collapsed and extended, just when collapsed it goes about half way down your forearm. Honestly, describing it as a "baton" is kind of unhelpful for those without pictures as an extendable baton (aka telescopic baton) is just a total different thing.

[profounddark]

Riobux wrote:

I don't think should is the word I'd use, but it'd definitely be understandable if they did have it since nightsticks are based on tonfas. The fact they don't, well, I can live with that. Then again, my experience with playing a monk was pre-Advanced Players Guide so fists were the way to go.

To your original point, my thought was less for "this is a good build" and more "hey, here we have the rules for tonfa, a relatively common martial arts weapon that somebody may want to build their monk around." And, who knows, maybe some day somebody will find a defensive tonfa monk build. :shrug:

And, to be honest, I also look at things from the perspective of "could this be an easy errata that would make sense for the game, long term." Having the tonfa/nightstick in the collection of monk weapons is a pretty easy thing to do that doesn't really upset the cosmic balance of the game. This feels more like an accidental omission than a deliberate choice.

[Riobux]

profounddark wrote:

To your original point, my thought was less for "this is a good build" and more "hey, here we have the rules for tonfa, a relatively common martial arts weapon that somebody may want to build their monk around." And, who knows, maybe some day somebody will find a defensive tonfa monk build. :shrug:

And, to be honest, I also look at things from the perspective of "could this be an easy errata that would make sense for the game, long term." Having the tonfa/nightstick in the collection of monk weapons is a pretty easy thing to do that doesn't really upset the cosmic balance of the game. This feels more like an accidental omission than a deliberate choice.

I think you're right that it's just a quick and easy errata fix and I'd be surprised if it upset the balance. You may be behind the curve in terms of unarmed stances, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. I'd rather have a player who has made a sub-optimal character that is just fantastic and interesting than some power-gaming dullard who has the personality of a rock. I think in my ramble, where I was trying to get to was saying you'd want to check to see if players are aware of what they're doing, so you don't end up someone doing worse than the rest of the party and upset for it.

I suspect the reason for the lack of the Monk trait here is similar to why pois lack the Monk trait: They're designed with their respective APs in mind and monks aren't really considered much as typical protagonists. That said, book 2 did add a cool archetype that is basically a monk to lean into certain NPCs, so it's more aware now than in EC.

That said, my general spirit was "nice if they do, wouldn't be upset if they don't". Monks are in an amazing position right now, so while even more choice is fantastic (seriously, I'm game for even more), I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world if Paizo waits until the next AP (or the AP after, forgot the order, sorry) and then releases a cornucopia of monk weapons like tonfas for their martial arts contest mini-AP. In the meanwhile, it's definitely something I'd almost definitely clear if a player asked because I'd be keen to see what they do with it.

[Zapp]

Riobux wrote:

Horrible tangent about weapon vs unarmed balance:

Sure you didn't mean

"Tangent about horrible weapon vs unarmed balance:"

;)

[Zapp]

profounddark wrote:

Should the Nightstick have the monk trait? The fact that it has the Parry trait coupled with the picture really suggests that this is supposed to be a tonfa (or a "side-handle baton"). It just seems a weird oversight, especially when you consider that the 1E tonfa was a monk weapon.

Since the nightstick is a "western"-constructed weapon, not really. Nothing suggests monks were involved with the design and manufacture of the nightstick weapon, after all.

You could add the Tonfa as a new weapon having identical stats though.

[Insapateh]

profounddark wrote:

If you're interested in context, I'd recommend searching for the Monadnock Expandable PR-24 (although realize you're going to get links to a bunch of police supply companies).

From personal experience selling weapons like this (in a country where they are illegal - but let's hear it for teenaged work in a military surplus store), there does not seem to be any reasonable way for a Monadnock side-handled collapsible to measure a total of 8 inches when not extended and also be as easily concealed as is described. The handle below the 'side-' is generally long enough to explicitly exclude this.

It seems more likely that this 'nightstick' is designed to replicate batons with no side-handle at all.

[profounddark]

Insapateh wrote:

It seems more likely that this 'nightstick' is designed to replicate batons with no side-handle at all.

I looked it up on AoN and your comment made sense, but then I looked in the module. The illustration for the Nightstick (in both extended and collapsed form) has a side-handle.

I'll chalk it up to "artist and writer thinking different things."

[Yasha Vienne]

This being the only thread that has the nightstick mentioned. I thought I would post here and hope I get some answers.

This weapon is NOT listed as one of the items on the "avid collector" list of items. Was it specifically left off or should it be present?

If anyone has any information about the sanctioning of the item in question please let me know and forward references as I have players in my area that are wondering about it.

Thanks.

Yasha

(sent on behalf of tony ting vc utah)

[Taja the Barbarian]

Yasha Vienne wrote:

This being the only thread that has the nightstick mentioned. I thought I would post here and hope I get some answers.

This weapon is NOT listed as one of the items on the "avid collector" list of items. Was it specifically left off or should it be present?

If anyone has any information about the sanctioning of the item in question please let me know and forward references as I have players in my area that are wondering about it.

Thanks.

Yasha

(sent on behalf of tony ting vc utah)

You'll probably better results if you create a new post in the actual PFS forums.