Quick question:
I can choose a spell that I know (or can get someone to cast for me) to craft a scroll with that spell on it. I can also choose a spell that I know (or can get someone to cast for me) to craft a wand with that spell on it.
Am I able to do the same with a staff? Can I choose a selection of spells that I know (or can get someone to cast for me) and create a staff with those spells on it?
I can think of a couple of ways to homebrew what I want - either writing up a named staff with the spells that I want and crafting that staff, or houseruling that I can create arbitrary staves the same way scrolls and wands are. But I am wondering if that houserule is actually an official rule that I am not finding, or if it is indeed a houserule.
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I don't think so. Staves aren't written to be as blank-slated and as customizable as wands or scrolls.
Wands are basically "Spell in a can 1/day," and Scrolls are "spell on a paper 1/ever." Staves are "Bonus spell slots via charges with access to cast these spells from either charges or your own appropriate spell slots." A completely different kind of item compared to what wands and scrolls are meant to accomplish.
Also keep in mind that you need formulas for those sorts of things. Being able to make things with personal choices in mind aren't really possible when you consider that a formula is required just to craft, well, anything really.
Does this mean it's not possible to craft a staff with special spell choices? No. But it does mean that it's basically a GM FIAT thing that would require GM approval, or special feats (like Craft Anything) to do.
I would allow a custom staff but it would need a theme and the character would need to create the formula after much experimentation. The formula would likely cost around 5x the cost of a similar staff formula depending on the spells in it. I'd make it kinda a mini quest for certain ingredients ect. Afterwards the player would have a unique formula and the first time he crafted it I would give a high difficulty to craft it going down to normal after creating a successful prototype.
I don't think so. Staves aren't written to be as blank-slated and as customizable as wands or scrolls.
Wands are basically "Spell in a can 1/day," and Scrolls are "spell on a paper 1/ever." Staves are "Bonus spell slots via charges with access to cast these spells from either charges or your own appropriate spell slots." A completely different kind of item compared to what wands and scrolls are meant to accomplish.
Also keep in mind that you need formulas for those sorts of things. Being able to make things with personal choices in mind aren't really possible when you consider that a formula is required just to craft, well, anything really.
Does this mean it's not possible to craft a staff with special spell choices? No. But it does mean that it's basically a GM FIAT thing that would require GM approval, or special feats (like Craft Anything) to do.
First, cool. That means that I didn't miss anything in my reading of the rules.
Second, it looks like you are creating the lore of the game to match the rules, and then justifying the rules using that lore. Which is fine. I do that myself quite a bit - find valid game lore that explains and justifies the written rules of the game.
However, for the sake of discussion, I would like to take up the other side of it. Is there anything besides a created game lore that justifies not allowing arbitrary staff creation? Or in other words, how unbalanced of a houserule would this be to allow it?
I don't think so. Staves aren't written to be as blank-slated and as customizable as wands or scrolls.
Wands are basically "Spell in a can 1/day," and Scrolls are "spell on a paper 1/ever." Staves are "Bonus spell slots via charges with access to cast these spells from either charges or your own appropriate spell slots." A completely different kind of item compared to what wands and scrolls are meant to accomplish.
Also keep in mind that you need formulas for those sorts of things. Being able to make things with personal choices in mind aren't really possible when you consider that a formula is required just to craft, well, anything really.
Does this mean it's not possible to craft a staff with special spell choices? No. But it does mean that it's basically a GM FIAT thing that would require GM approval, or special feats (like Craft Anything) to do.
First, cool. That means that I didn't miss anything in my reading of the rules.
Second, it looks like you are creating the lore of the game to match the rules, and then justifying the rules using that lore. Which is fine. I do that myself quite a bit - find valid game lore that explains and justifies the written rules of the game.
However, for the sake of discussion, I would like to take up the other side of it. Is there anything besides a created game lore that justifies not allowing arbitrary staff creation? Or in other words, how unbalanced of a houserule would this be to allow it?
It's not really a "lore" reason, but a "crafting rules" and "item expectation" reason. To create items whatsoever, a formula of the item is required. While this is for items that are currently published, it's even for items you wish to custom-make: A formula is still required for "Breithauptclan's Staff of Uniquity," for example. One that you must design and make for yourself. To make a custom item would make it unique by definition (since it's only your table that has access to it), unless the formula for it is somehow recreated and passed along, thereby reducing the rarity and increasing the availability of the item. Meta-game wise, you could publish the item online for others to use at their tables, thereby no longer making it "Unique," and instead "Rare," or even "Uncommon." If it's so regularly used by other players, it might just become "Common" if Paizo decides to publish it in their books as such!
Big-brain thinking aside, per the rules, the only way to "make up" your own items without formulas is the Craft Anything feat. Even a feat like Inventor only lets you create common formulas for yourself (which takes an exorbitantly slow amount of time to do compared to just spending the gold to do it anyway), anything that's Uncommon or Rare (AKA the only things you'd really want to learn how to craft since you can't really buy them in stores unless those stores give you access) is still off-limits to you without the Craft Anything feat.
You can find ways to craft just about anything, despite restrictions. As long as you have the appropriate Crafting skill feat (such as Magical Crafting for magic items) and meet the item’s level and proficiency requirement, you ignore just about any other requirement, such as being of a specific ancestry or providing spells. The only exceptions are requirements that add to the item’s cost, including castings of spells that themselves have a cost, and requirements of special items such as the philosopher’s stone that have exclusive means of access and Crafting. The GM decides whether you can ignore a requirement.
And even then, the GM can still veto the item if they feel that a requirement must still be met (such as components or specialty items), or if they just don't want something with that kind of power/versatility in the game.
As for how unbalanced it is to just houserule it, that wholly depends on what items you are wanting to make and what levels they're meant for. Obviously, making a 1st level item grant a Wish spell or something similar is probably going to be extremely unbalanced to the point of destroying the game. Potentially so would a 12th level item granting the ability to utilize an 8th level Disintegrate spell, as the game doesn't expect 12th level players to be slugging around 8th level spells' worth of damage, though if it's a Macguffin, it might be passable.
Seems to me the easiest way to do this in something resembling a balanced fashion, would be to take an existing staff, change the theme, and start swapping out the spells to with new spells of the same levels that better match the new theme.
As with any homebrew item, involve your GM in the process.
As for how unbalanced it is to just houserule it, that wholly depends on what items you are wanting to make and what levels they're meant for. Obviously, making a 1st level item grant a Wish spell or something similar is probably going to be extremely unbalanced to the point of destroying the game. Potentially so would a 12th level item granting the ability to utilize an 8th level Disintegrate spell, as the game doesn't expect 12th level players to be slugging around 8th level spells' worth of damage, though if it's a Macguffin, it might be passable.
It would be closely following the rules for crafting wands. The item level of the staff would be based on the highest level of spell placed in it, and the crafting of the staff would require that each of the spells be cast as part of the crafting process.
So a 1st level staff couldn't hold Wish. Nor could a 12th level staff hold an 8th level Disintegrate.
As for being a 'lore' reason for forbidding it, I'll ask this: If a rule text block like this, but for staves instead of wands was included in the rules for staves, would you have noticed? Would it have seemed out of place, or unbalanced?
i'd say that making a custom staff is no different than making custom magic boots.
in a house game, work with your gm, find a flavour for the magic item, and use preexisting items as a basis.
in an "official" game, i don't beleive that you can craft things outside of what's printed.
100% agreed.
i'd say that making a custom staff is no different than making custom magic boots.
in a house game, work with your gm, find a flavour for the magic item, and use preexisting items as a basis.
in an "official" game, i don't beleive that you can craft things outside of what's printed.
Yes, I think we are all in agreement that I am straying into the realm of houserules.
But does anyone have any ideas why? Because that is the part that sticks out to me. When I am reading through the rules for crafting magical items it does seem like it is a strange and unexpected omission to not have the ability to create an arbitrary-spell staff. I can create an arbirtary-spell scroll. I can create an arbitrary-spell wand. Why no arbitrary-spell staff? Was it just an omission in printing? Or is there actually some reason that it would cause problems with the game?
Especially in the face of Staff Nexus
I feel like I am being repetitive. But I also feel like no one is actually answering the questions that I have. Maybe I am not explaining what I am looking for well enough. Maybe no one has an answer. Not sure.
As for how unbalanced it is to just houserule it, that wholly depends on what items you are wanting to make and what levels they're meant for. Obviously, making a 1st level item grant a Wish spell or something similar is probably going to be extremely unbalanced to the point of destroying the game. Potentially so would a 12th level item granting the ability to utilize an 8th level Disintegrate spell, as the game doesn't expect 12th level players to be slugging around 8th level spells' worth of damage, though if it's a Macguffin, it might be passable.It would be closely following the rules for crafting wands. The item level of the staff would be based on the highest level of spell placed in it, and the crafting of the staff would require that each of the spells be cast as part of the crafting process.
So a 1st level staff couldn't hold Wish. Nor could a 12th level staff hold an 8th level Disintegrate.
As for being a 'lore' reason for forbidding it, I'll ask this: If a rule text block like this, but for staves instead of wands was included in the rules for staves, would you have noticed? Would it have seemed out of place, or unbalanced?
It already basically does, based on every crafting requirement listed in staves, but it's not a wand. It's a staff. It's as impossible to craft a staff with your choice of spells as is impossible to craft boots with your choice of benefits. There isn't a lore reason forbidding you to make a staff with your own hand-picked spells, it's purely mechanical, such as requiring a formula, a casting of all the given spells, as well as being an equal or higher level character/crafter.