Dueling Cape

[fibbonaughty]

So, RAW it appears that dueling cape is incompatible with any of the swashbuckler stance feat lines - it uses a hand, so the dueling parry line is out; it lacks the parry feat, so the parry line is out; and it is not a buckler, so the buckler line is out. Is this correct? Is it intended?

I ask because, from my perspective, that makes the item ultimately inferior to every other option for the class for which one would assume it was designed. Perhaps the +1 to feint is valuable enough to a specific type of swashbuckler? At higher levels, I doubt it.

[Nefreet]

I figure it's for one of those Campaigns where story and roleplay are more common than being fully armed to the teeth 24/7.

I picked it up for my Paladin/Swashbuckler because I could foresee an invitation to a public meeting space, no weapons allowed, where we're ambushed anyways, and being the LG honest type, now all I have is my cape and my gauntlet.

Or for if my Glamorous Buckler is dissolved by an ooze.

Or for when I decide to randomly engage in a bull fight.

Or I wake up and my buckler and sword were stolen.

Or because it just looks cool.

It's impossible for every character option to be the best.

[fibbonaughty]

I get that - it just seems odd to me that they'd add a new item to go along with the class that didn't receive any of the class benefits. I'm not sure how to explain it - it's not about being optimal; it just doesn't compute in my head that they wouldn't want the shiny new item to work with the shiny new class.

I have a little OCD about stuff like this.

[Deadmanwalking]

+1 to feint is indeed really important and valuable to Duelist Swashbucklers specifically. At all levels, as monster Perception tends to be pretty high. Whether it's worth an action is a lot more debatable, but it's not nothing and you do also get +1 AC.

It's probably not as valuable as the extra AC from grabbing Buckler Expertise or Dueling Parry, it's true...but those are Feats, and Swashbuckler has a lot of really good Feats, and while those two (and their later enhancements) are certainly on the list, they're competing with other things to be on it, not winning and becoming a must-have for all Swashbucklers.

So...you take the cape, and enjoy the bonus, if you're a Duelist and don't take those two very specific Feats. That's not really even a niche build, just a slightly less defensive one.

[HumbleGamer]

fibbonaughty wrote:

So, RAW it appears that dueling cape is incompatible with any of the swashbuckler stance feat lines - it uses a hand, so the dueling parry line is out; it lacks the parry feat, so the parry line is out; and it is not a buckler, so the buckler line is out. Is this correct? Is it intended?

I ask because, from my perspective, that makes the item ultimately inferior to every other option for the class for which one would assume it was designed. Perhaps the +1 to feint is valuable enough to a specific type of swashbuckler? At higher levels, I doubt it.

I think I agree with you about it

Quote:

You can pull a dueling cape you're wearing from your shoulder and wrap it around your arm with an Interact action

1 interact action to grab and wrap it around your arm ( also, you could get an AoO ).

Quote:

While wielding the dueling cape this way, the cape uses that arm and hand, and you can't hold anything else in that hand.

Hand occupied ( no maneuvers, no items, no +2 ac, etc... )

Quote:

While you do so, you can spend an action to hold it in a protective position, giving you a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and to Deception checks to Feint until the start of your next turn.

1 action to gain +1 circumstance until the start of your next turn ( so you have to use it on the turn you.

It sucks in both terms of bonuses and action economy, and should just be used because of flavor stuff.

The rogue feat "instant opening" is godlike, even if you compare it to simply rolling a deception check.

[shroudb]

are we comparing a level 0 item costing 5sp with a class feat?

the dueling cape is an alternative if you dont go for the buckler/parry feats.

It gives more bonuses than a buckler, but it takes 1 extra interact action to "draw" it.

that's all it is.

[HumbleGamer]

shroudb wrote:

are we comparing a level 0 item costing 5sp with a class feat?

the dueling cape is an alternative if you dont go for the buckler/parry feats.

It gives more bonuses than a buckler, but it takes 1 extra interact action to "draw" it.

that's all it is.

Well, the comparison was between:

- A lvl 14 feat

vs

- A skill check which requires the same number of action
- It requires to lvl up as main skill deception
- It requires you to increase charisma in order to have higher chances to success/critically success
- It requires you to have items that enhances your deception skill
- It requires your target to be melee ( instead of 30 yd range )

Unless for static use of a fencer swashbuckler ( for a hybrid +1 AC / +1 Deception )

1) Raise
2) Feint
3) Finishing

Repeat

I really can't find a good use for it.

[shroudb]

HumbleGamer wrote:

shroudb wrote:

are we comparing a level 0 item costing 5sp with a class feat?

the dueling cape is an alternative if you dont go for the buckler/parry feats.

It gives more bonuses than a buckler, but it takes 1 extra interact action to "draw" it.

that's all it is.

Well, the comparison was between:

- A lvl 14 feat

vs

- A skill check which requires the same number of action
- It requires to lvl up as main skill deception
- It requires you to increase charisma in order to have higher chances to success/critically success
- It requires you to have items that enhances your deception skill
- It requires your target to be melee ( instead of 30 yd range )

Unless for static use of a fencer swashbuckler ( for a hybrid +1 AC / +1 Deception )

1) Raise
2) Feint
3) Finishing

Repeat

I really can't find a good use for it.

no, not really.\\you are overcomplicating it.

the question was what's the purpose of the dueling cape.

and it's purpose is very clear:
it gives an additional +1 to feinting alongside "buckler raise shield" +1 circumstance to AC
a cape is also tremendously less incospicuous than a buckler.

so, bonus wise it's a better buckler, but obviously, that comes with some negatives, primarely the action to "draw it" in the start of the encounter and that your hand is no longer empty.

do the feats about buckler/parry work on it? no.
Do they need to? again no.

it's an alternative in case you dont want to use 2 feats on buckler/parry+stance

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't see any reason you can't, if you're in say a dungeon, walk around with the cape wrapped around your arm already.

You don't want to do that in a social situation, and it uses up a hand, but so does carrying a weapon in hand, and lots of people do that.

[HumbleGamer]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I don't see any reason you can't, if you're in say a dungeon, walk around with the cape wrapped around your arm already.

You don't want to do that in a social situation, and it uses up a hand, but so does carrying a weapon in hand, and lots of people do that.

I agree that you can.

You simply have to decide how to proceed:

- Free hand/Buckler ( grab an edge/maneuvers )
- Torch ( A party without darkvision would have the [Rare] tag )
- Elixir/Potion ( to drink at the beginning of the fight, or just to have it ready )
- Cloaked ( ready to have your +1 AC/Dec )

[Deadmanwalking]

If you have Swaggering Initiative, that lets you auto quickdraw every combat when you roll initiative and you can do both cloak and one of the other options.

That's not a great Feat, IMO, but it is a bit better for a cloak user.

Oh, and BTW, I screwed up my terminology in my first post, I was thinking the Fencer Style was called Duelist right at that moment, which is obviously incorrect. It's Fencer Swashbucklers who benefit from feinting and thus the cape.

[Elfteiroh]

(Just to point out that in PF2 it’s way more common to have at least one character to not have Darkvision... thus need a torch. Also, if there’s a « color coded puzzle », the party will need some light.)

[fibbonaughty]

Actually, my question was "Am I correct in reading the entry that way?" - and overwhelmingly it appears the answer is that I was. I colored my question a bit with my consideration that they added a new item for a new class that seemed less effective than the existing options.

I understand that it was assumed I was implying that it being a sub-optimal choice made it "bad." I wasn't really thinking about it that way - just that it didn't make logical sense to me. I was basically thinking, "Why (logically) would you design a class and design an item for that class and not make them mechanically integrated in the same way preexisting options already are?" "What design purpose drove that decision?"

That said, I think it could be a great basis for a higher level swashbuckler magical item - just give it a 1/day cloak of colors or something and it would be great.

shroudb wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

shroudb wrote:

are we comparing a level 0 item costing 5sp with a class feat?

the dueling cape is an alternative if you dont go for the buckler/parry feats.

It gives more bonuses than a buckler, but it takes 1 extra interact action to "draw" it.

that's all it is.

Well, the comparison was between:

- A lvl 14 feat

vs

- A skill check which requires the same number of action
- It requires to lvl up as main skill deception
- It requires you to increase charisma in order to have higher chances to success/critically success
- It requires you to have items that enhances your deception skill
- It requires your target to be melee ( instead of 30 yd range )

Unless for static use of a fencer swashbuckler ( for a hybrid +1 AC / +1 Deception )

1) Raise
2) Feint
3) Finishing

Repeat

I really can't find a good use for it.

no, not really.\\you are overcomplicating it.

the question was what's the purpose of the dueling cape.

and it's purpose is very clear:
it gives an additional +1 to feinting alongside "buckler raise shield" +1 circumstance to AC
a cape is also tremendously less incospicuous than a buckler.

so, bonus wise it's a better buckler, but obviously, that comes with some negatives, primarely the action to "draw it" in the start of the encounter and that your hand is no longer empty.

do the feats about buckler/parry work on it? no.
Do they need to? again no.

it's an alternative in case you dont want to use 2 feats on buckler/parry+stance