Ranger Feat 6 - Ephemeral Tracking

[Mythraine]

Hey team, hoping you help me work through why Ephemeral Tracking exists.

It seems to me, that is this one of those "Fill in a rules niche for something that didn't require rules" and "now the assumption is I can't do that thing unless I take that option."

Before Ephemeral Tracking, I assumed a high enough level of Survival would cover crazy tracking options like across water, through air etc. If you are legendary in Survival you should be able to do those things.

Now it looks like a ranger can't track through air or water, regardless of proficiency unless they take this feat. AND, as it's a focus spell above level 1, the same ranger needs to take a totally unrelated feat to qualify by gaining a focus pool.

I want to make a tracking ranger who is the best of the best. So I see Ephemeral Tracking falling into one of two interpretations:

1. You can't track over sea or air without it
2. Tracking over sea or air is usually a Master or Legendary task. This feat allows you to track over sea or air by only being an expert in Survival (in this way it is similar to the Trap Finder feat of rogues)

Have I read it correctly? Something I've missed?

[N N 959]

Mythraine wrote:

Before Ephemeral Tracking, I assumed a high enough level of Survival would cover crazy tracking options like across water, through air etc. If you are legendary in Survival you should be able to do those things.

Now it looks like a ranger can't track through air or water, regardless of proficiency unless they take this feat. AND, as it's a focus spell above level 1, the same ranger needs to take a totally unrelated feat to qualify by gaining a focus pool.

Funny you should mention that. There's a long thread in the general discussion that talk about whether things released in the APG are back door nerfing Skills.

Quote:

1. You can't track over sea or air without it

2. Tracking over sea or air is usually a Master or Legendary task. This feat allows you to track over sea or air by only being an expert in Survival (in this way it is similar to the Trap Finder feat of rogues)

Have I read it correctly? Something I've missed?

If we go strictly RAW, option 1. So no, no tracking a falcon on a cloudy day without Ephemeral Tracking.

Look at the text of Survival

p.252 wrote:

The GM determines the DCs for such checks, depending on the freshness of the trail, the weather, and the type of ground.

p. 252 wrote:

Sample Track Tasks
Untrained the path of a large army following a road
Trained relatively fresh tracks of a rampaging bear through the plains
Expert a nimble panther’s tracks through a jungle, tracks after the rain
Master tracks after a winter snow, tracks of a mouse or smaller creature, tracks left on surfaces that can’t hold prints like bare rock
Legendary old tracks through a windy desert’s sands, tracks after a major blizzard or hurricane

None of the examples indicate tracking anything besides ground prints. Prior to Ephemeral Tracking, you might have made an argument that examples were not meant to be exhaustive, but with ET, it would appear so.

One thing you should consider is whether ET is actually going to be contemplated in published content. Published content may not consider a character's ability to track a flying or swimming creature, so you may find this ability severely hampered by a GM's ability to figure out how to resolve this.

[Mythraine]

Yes I guess I would have to agree with you on the RAW interpretation.

You are also correct regarding published content. I feel it will never show up, as it will come down to two options:
1. Need to track something the doesn't require the feat - easy enough with the correct skills and levels
2. Need to track something that does require the feat - unnecessarily hard as the odds someone will have this one specific feat are next to zero.

I wouldn't be soo worried about this if it was a skill feat (as there is zero combat utility to it). OR if it didn't require an unrelated prerequisite (1st level focus pool feat).

BUT as a class feat and needing to use another class feat to access, it feels like a badly designed feat requiring too much investment for not enough gain. Very frustrating.

[N N 959]

Mythraine wrote:

BUT as a class feat and needing to use another class feat to access, it feels like a badly designed feat requiring too much investment for not enough gain. Very frustrating.

Well, yes, welcome to the PF2 Ranger. You're not alone in your frustration.

Tracking, is one of those activities that has been very poorly implemented in these types of games. Because an author can't depend on someone being able to track, tracking can't really be useful. Hopefully PF2 will be more cognizant of this fact and allow successful tracking to provide mechanical benefits as a reward.

However, I've already played severral PF2 scenarios where you would expect to find tracks and track someone and the scenario had no contingency for it.

[SuperBidi]

Mythraine wrote:

Before Ephemeral Tracking, I assumed a high enough level of Survival would cover crazy tracking options like across water, through air etc. If you are legendary in Survival you should be able to do those things.

I must admit I never thought that. If someone suddenly starts to fly, I'll just tell the tracker that the tracks stop there. Tracking in air or water is not really tracking (there are no tracks!). From scent, I would have authorized it, but not without any way to find a clue someone got there. So, for me, as a DM, Ephemeral Tracking actually allows something I would not allow otherwise, even to a Legendary tracker.

About published content, it really depends on the DM. Personally, I always adapt published content, even PFS one, both to the party and to my desires. And if a player finds a way to avoid all the dungeon because he can track the BBEG through air, I just find that hyper cool and I let him do it. If we end the adventure in 30 minutes, I'll be able to improvise a big roleplay moment at the tavern so everyone get their 4 hours of play.

[thewastedwalrus]

I don't know, I probably wouldn't have allowed most rangers to track through the air by currents without something like this ability. Maybe if they were legendary and rolled 40+, but this ability makes it available at level 6 which is pretty early for an ability that feels this impressive in the narrative.

So in that respect it seems like it would be a situationally useful ability, like most tracking/survival based abilities.

[N N 959]

SuperBidi wrote:

. And if a player finds a way to avoid all the dungeon because he can track the BBEG through air, I just find that hyper cool and I let him do it. If we end the adventure in 30 minutes, I'll be able to improvise a big roleplay moment at the tavern so everyone get their 4 hours of play.

If this were real life and your goal was to find the the McGuffan and kill the thing guarding it, then yes, skipping the gauntlet would be great. In a cooperative game, this is not a universally great outcome. For many people, it's not really about the result, but the journey. Players want/need encounters to use their skills and get feedback on the character choices that they made. So the idea of skipping all the other encounters is going to be viewed negatively in the context of playing a game where people want to hit things and make skill checks. In many ways, it's like a Save or Suck spell from a Caster that ends the battle in round 1, "Yay.......?!?"

Skipping ahead has the distinctive feel of robbing the other players of a chance to actually play the game. So much so, I've actually told GMs not to worry about it if the scenario has no instructions for tracking things.

In PFS, I would submit its way too much burden to put on a random (aka inexperienced) GM. I've had VO's draw a blank on how to proceed. A player also runs the risk of missing out on Treasure Bundles that associated with the encounters. Expecting GMs to automatically/reliably redistribute those bundles is setting them up for failure and ends up penalizing players from getting treasure that they didn't realize they were suppose to get.

The concept for Ephemeral Tracking is great and expected. But based on my experience the PF2 game isn't set up to support this type of agency and it is more likely going to be a source of frustration for a player who takes it.

[Castilliano]

N N 959 wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

. And if a player finds a way to avoid all the dungeon because he can track the BBEG through air, I just find that hyper cool and I let him do it. If we end the adventure in 30 minutes, I'll be able to improvise a big roleplay moment at the tavern so everyone get their 4 hours of play.

If this were real life and your goal was to find the the McGuffan and kill the thing guarding it, then yes, skipping the gauntlet would be great. In a cooperative game, this is not a universally great outcome. For many people, it's not really about the result, but the journey. Players want/need encounters to use their skills and get feedback on the character choices that they made. So the idea of skipping all the other encounters is going to be viewed negatively in the context of playing a game where people want to hit things and make skill checks. In many ways, it's like a Save or Suck spell from a Caster that ends the battle in round 1, "Yay.......?!?"

Skipping ahead has the distinctive feel of robbing the other players of a chance to actually play the game. So much so, I've actually told GMs not to worry about it if the scenario has no instructions for tracking things.

In PFS, I would submit its way too much burden to put on a random (aka inexperienced) GM. I've had VO's draw a blank on how to proceed. A player also runs the risk of missing out on Treasure Bundles that associated with the encounters. Expecting GMs to automatically/reliably redistribute those bundles is setting them up for failure and ends up penalizing players from getting treasure that they didn't realize they were suppose to get.

The concept for Ephemeral Tracking is great and expected. But based on my experience the PF2 game isn't set up to support this type of agency and it is more likely going to be a source of frustration for a player who takes it.

Yep. Hopefully there's more to the story than that final showdown the party's rushed to. Much of which might get bypassed. And if there are other story elements, bypassing may disrupt more than aid.

Judge: "And of course you've accumulated enough evidence to warrant having stormed his home?"
Party: "Um...yeah. Give us a few hours. We'll be back."