How do you tie someone up?

[Ravingdork]

What are the rules for tying someone up with rope in Pathfinder 2E?

[thenobledrake]

Nestled in the Escape action is "...the Thievery DC of a creature who tied you up..."

So someone says "I tie them up" and that sets the DC for the Escape action to that character's Thievery DC, and that's pretty much all there is to know.

[Matthew Downie]

thenobledrake wrote:

So someone says "I tie them up"

How long does that take?

And is it still the case that anyone can escape from being tied up in under a minute just by repeatedly trying to Escape until they roll a natural 20?

[Castilliano]

Matthew Downie wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

So someone says "I tie them up"

How long does that take?

And is it still the case that anyone can escape from being tied up in under a minute just by repeatedly trying to Escape until they roll a natural 20?

Don't know the time frame (short, but is it short enough for combat?), but yes, it seems difficult to keep somebody tied up. Getting a 20 is a 10 pip advantage and they get a bump in result, which seems insurmountable except when very high level tie up commoners.

And many enemy PCs have high attack bonuses which generally would translate to a similarly high unarmed attack bonus to escape (and nearly all have a solid Acrobatics or Athletics check).
Hmm.

The trouble seems to apply to spells too. Other than knocking them unconscious, there doesn't seem a good way to apprehend villains.
"Time to set up camp."
"Not again!"
*bonk*

[Malk_Content]

It's an action movie timescale which suits the games fantasy. The hero/villain waits until the guard drops attention for a short time before quickly escaping their bonds.

[Matthew Downie]

If the guard is familiar with the genre (or the Escape rules), he'll probably break the prisoner's arms and legs, just to make sure.

[thenobledrake]

Matthew Downie wrote:

If the guard is familiar with the genre (or the Escape rules), he'll probably break the prisoner's arms and legs, just to make sure.

...if he's a callous evil bastard, sure.

Otherwise, a guard watching someone that is tied up can encourage them to stay tied up simply by watching them. Their struggle to get free will be noticeable, and the implied threat of the guard doing more if they catch them trying to espace (like knocking them out or the like) will make the tied up person want to wait until they aren't being watched or try and incorporate some stealth in their attempt (which should also mean working slower).

As for the general difficulty of keeping someone tied up once they start trying to escape - that's an overall good thing because, in a broadly general sense, it's a lot more likely that it's PCs that are tied up and trying to escape than it is NPCs (mostly as a result of GMs that have a tendency to deliberately foil player's attempts to take prisoners, or at least make them massively annoying by focusing on the NPC's desire not to be a prisoner over all the other factors - like what's actually fun for the players and interesting for the story - when making choices how to have the captured NPC behave).

So the paradigm of it being a question of when, rather than if, someone gets free of their bindings basically just means that the GM hasn't completely shut down player agency via their characters if they've said "you get tied up" rather than "you get locked in a room" in the event of capture.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Matthew Downie wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

So someone says "I tie them up"

How long does that take?

And is it still the case that anyone can escape from being tied up in under a minute just by repeatedly trying to Escape until they roll a natural 20?

More likely it is a scenario where the GM just creates an activity and goes from there. It is the reason that such loose rules exist in the GMing section.

[KrispyXIV]

I generally don't allow NPCs to escape once defeated by the PCs, unless its extremely narratively relevant.

This would just encourage them to kill everyone, and never have mercy/take prisoners, which is... extremely undesirable. As would be maiming prisoners to prevent escape.

Escape DCs for tieing someone up, therefore, are mostly relevant to PCs wanting to escape.

Therefore the time isn't terribly relevant, but I'd say in general its an Exploration concern, barring unique abilities like those possessed by slaver organizations...

[Xenocrat]

Matthew Downie wrote:

If the guard is familiar with the genre (or the Escape rules), he'll probably break the prisoner's arms and legs, just to make sure.

What are the rules for breaking bones, and what are the game penalties for having them?

[KrispyXIV]

Xenocrat wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

If the guard is familiar with the genre (or the Escape rules), he'll probably break the prisoner's arms and legs, just to make sure.

What are the rules for breaking bones, and what are the game penalties for having them?

This question, and the resulting discussion, is on the list of topics never to come up at my table again ;)

Its also a compelling reason not to overturns tying up NPC prisoners...

[Salamileg]

KrispyXIV wrote:

I generally don't allow NPCs to escape once defeated by the PCs, unless its extremely narratively relevant.

This would just encourage them to kill everyone, and never have mercy/take prisoners, which is... extremely undesirable. As would be maiming prisoners to prevent escape.

Escape DCs for tieing someone up, therefore, are mostly relevant to PCs wanting to escape.

Therefore the time isn't terribly relevant, but I'd say in general its an Exploration concern, barring unique abilities like those possessed by slaver organizations...

Yeah, this is how I'd do it. Last session the party I'm in tied up a dinosaur because the monk tries to make friends with nearly every animal we meet, and for some reason she and the druid thought hog tying a velociraptor was the key to friendship.

Anyways, we took a rest shortly after, and the GM let it make one escape attempt per watch we took, which felt reasonable.

[Themetricsystem]

With great care, quality non-abrasive rope, and consent.

If I had to codify it I would make it a 1-minute Exploration Activity that cannot be used in Enconter Mode at all without a custom Skill (Athletics) Feat.

[CrystalSeas]

Themetricsystem wrote:

With great care, quality non-abrasive rope, and consent.

If I had to codify it I would make it a 1-minute Exploration Activity that cannot be used in Enconter Mode at all without a custom Skill (Athletics) Feat.

Why wouldn't you use a Thievery skill check, since that's what it takes to escape from being tied up.

[Artificial 20]

Knot easily.