I'm curious how the elemental bloodline for sorcerers interacts with other ways of casting their granted spells. Assume we're talking about a non-fire elemental sorcerer for this.
If an elemental sorcerer casts fireball from a scroll or wand, does it match their element or is it always fire?
Similarly, is the persistent damage from the Wand of Smoldering Fireballs changed to the sorcerer's type?
Does it matter for the above questions if the sorcerer crafted the items themselves?
This is an interesting question, as I hadn't consider this detail before.
Reading through the relevant bits of text, however, I see that there aren't key words upon which to hang answers to some of the questions.
It's clear that elemental bloodline sorcerers (other than fire, of course) add unique versions of certain Granted Spells to their repertoire, so if the sorcerer crafted an item that cast that spell it is clear enough to me that the item would cast the version the sorcerer cast while crafting it.
...but there's no limiter preventing a sorcerer from picking up the standard version of an altered Granted Spell, and no "this is the only version of the spell you can produce" kind of text, so it would seem that magic items which cast spells that would be altered as Granted Spells cast their standard version.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Scrolls and wands treat you as the caster, as if it was you casting the spell. The scroll/wand is just there to provide the "spell slot" as it were.
So I don't really see why it wouldn't get mutated with the sorcerer's elemental type.
They also provide the spell.
thenobledrake wrote: It's clear that elemental bloodline sorcerers (other than fire, of course) add unique versions of certain Granted Spells to their repertoire I'm not sure that's actually true. The description of the Elemental bloodline says it changes the damage type and traits for the marked spells, but it doesn't actually suggest you're learning a unique spell as far as I can tell. Just that, for the caster, fireball does bludgeoning damage and the water, earth or air traits instead.
Squiggit wrote: I'm not sure that's actually true. The description of the Elemental bloodline says it changes the damage type and traits for the marked spells, but it doesn't actually suggest you're learning a unique spell as far as I can tell. Just that, for the caster, fireball does bludgeoning damage and the water, earth or air traits instead. If it does different damage and changes traits, what besides a "unique spell" is it?
Draco18s wrote: So I don't really see why it wouldn't get mutated with the sorcerer's elemental type. Because the change is stated as happening when you add the spell to your repertoire, not whenever you cast the spell. Thus there is room to believe that a spell cast from outside your repertoire wouldn't also change.
thenobledrake wrote: Because the change is stated as happening when you add the spell to your repertoire, not whenever you cast the spell. Thus there is room to believe that a spell cast from outside your repertoire wouldn't also change. It does not say that. It says, "For fire, the marked spells deal fire damage. For other elements, they deal bludgeoning damage. You also add the trait of the element you chose."
I don't see how "I cast Fireball" and "I cast Fireball (from a scroll)" don't both fall into that clause and come out the same on the other end.
Draco18s wrote: It does not say that. It doesn't explicitly state "when you cast these spells."
What it does state is a) these are automatically in your spell repertoire, and b) change the damage and traits were appropriate. That might not be an explicit "these changes happen when adding the spell to your repertoire, not at some other time" but it absolutely is the change being stated as part of the rule element that adds the spell to your repertoire.
The conclusion I draw from that - that not stating "when you cast these spells" means you can cast the standard variety from a source other than your spell repertoire - seems logically sound to me.
thenobledrake wrote: If it does different damage and changes traits, what besides a "unique spell" is it? The spell doing different damage, as the text says.
Quote: The conclusion I draw from that - that not stating "when you cast these spells" means you can cast the standard variety from a source other than your spell repertoire - seems logically sound to me. Can't agree. The text says that the marked spells deal bludgeoning damage.
So you have a class feature that says Fireball deals bludgeoning damage. If you cast fireball, it... deals bludgeoning damage, because that's what your class feature says Fireball does for you.
So saying "if I cast fireball this way it deals fire damage instead" just seems to be outright ignoring the class feature that says fireball deals bludgeoning damage for you.
I don't think it's really a big deal either way, though.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Squiggit wrote: So you have a class feature that says Fireball deals bludgeoning damage. The context of the class feature matters.
It's not a feature that says "fireball deals bludgeoning damage" and that's it.
It's a class feature that says "you automatically add fireball that deals bludgeoning damage to your spell repertoire." - and that's distinctly not the same as if the feature said "any time you cast fireball it does bludgeoning damage."
Because it's not just the text inside the elemental bloodline, but also the general information in the "Reading a Bloodline Entry" that tells us what the features of a bloodline do.
thenobledrake wrote: It's a class feature that says "you automatically add fireball that deals bludgeoning damage to your spell repertoire." Just to clarify: It absolutely does not say that. If it did, I'd be in complete agreement with you.
Salamileg wrote: I'm curious how the elemental bloodline for sorcerers interacts with other ways of casting their granted spells. Assume we're talking about a non-fire elemental sorcerer for this.
If an elemental sorcerer casts fireball from a scroll or wand, does it match their element or is it always fire?
Similarly, is the persistent damage from the Wand of Smoldering Fireballs changed to the sorcerer's type?
Does it matter for the above questions if the sorcerer crafted the items themselves?
It could go either way for me.
For consistency, I think it would be important to rule either of the following 2 ways, but not mix and match. So EITHER:
1) There is only one spell; Fireball. When cast by a water elemental sorcerer, it always manifests as Waterball, regardless of whether the spell is cast from repertoire or an item. Items crafted by a water elemental sorcerer produce ordinary Fireballs when used by non-water elemental sorcerers, even if Waterball was cast as part of the crafting process. This interpretation would never allow them to cast Fireball by any means or teach Waterball to anyone else.
OR
2) Water elemental sorcerers are granted the spell Waterball by their bloodline, which is a completely different spell from Fireball. If they cast Fireball from an item, the spell produces an ordinary Fireball. If they craft an item and cast Waterball (from their repertoire) into it during the crafting process, then anyone who casts the spell from that item will cast Waterball. In this scenario, water elemental sorcerers would be able to add Fireball to their repertoire as a separate spell. They would also be able to teach Waterball to a wizard, for example, with the Learn a Spell activity.
Not sure which way I'd rule, but leaning towards (2) just because it seems like it opens up more interesting possibilities - which is almost always more fun.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Squiggit wrote: thenobledrake wrote: It's a class feature that says "you automatically add fireball that deals bludgeoning damage to your spell repertoire." Just to clarify: It absolutely does not say that. If it did, I'd be in complete agreement with you. Here's the quotes:
Reading a Bloodline Entry wrote: Granted Spells You automatically add the spells listed here to your spell repertoire... Elemental Bloodline wrote: Granted Spells cantrip produce flame*, 1st: burning hands*, 2nd: resist energy, 3rd: fireball*... Elemental Type wrote: For fire, all marked spells deal fire damage. For other elements, they deal bludgeoning damage. Replace any existing elemental traits with the trait of the element you chose. Combining those together into one coherent statement is how "You automatically add the spells listed here to your spell repertoire, with the marked ones dealing bludgeoning damage" is arrived upon.
So it actually does say basically what I'd quoted before.
At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from.
thenobledrake wrote: At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from. Similarly, casting a spell from a scroll is identical to if the person casting it was casting it out of their own spell slots.
Draco18s wrote: thenobledrake wrote: At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from. Similarly, casting a spell from a scroll is identical to if the person casting it was casting it out of their own spell slots. Where is that specified? I only see that the spell DC is the caster's and that it gains the "appropriate trait for your tradition".
mrspaghetti wrote: Draco18s wrote: thenobledrake wrote: At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from. Similarly, casting a spell from a scroll is identical to if the person casting it was casting it out of their own spell slots. Where is that specified? I only see that the spell DC is the caster's and that it gains the "appropriate trait for your tradition". "Because you're the one casting the spell..."
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Draco18s wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Draco18s wrote: thenobledrake wrote: At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from. Similarly, casting a spell from a scroll is identical to if the person casting it was casting it out of their own spell slots. Where is that specified? I only see that the spell DC is the caster's and that it gains the "appropriate trait for your tradition". "Because you're the one casting the spell..." But that's not necessarily saying it's identical in every way. If that were the intent it would have been easy enough to write that, but instead the devs only mention DC, attack roll and tradition trait specifically.
Draco18s wrote: thenobledrake wrote: At the very least, it definitely more says that than it says the damage is changed no matter where the marked spells are cast from. Similarly, casting a spell from a scroll is identical to if the person casting it was casting it out of their own spell slots. Which would only be fully relevant if we had a concrete piece of text telling us that it's impossible for an elemental sorcerer to have their granted (modified) spell and the normal version of the spell in their repertoire, because otherwise it being the caster casting the spell doesn't exclude it being the standard version of the spell.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
